Israel.

[Prestwich_Blue]

The UN's General Assembly's acceptance of the Partition Plan led to the end of the British Mandate and that enabled the declaration of statehood. It's a sequence of events not either/or.

I'm just trying to establish whether you think a Palestinian state could have claimed sovereignty at that point in time if not for the invasion.

I do agree with that 100% and it demonstrates the hypocrisy of the Arab world towards the Palestinians. Certainly from 1948 to 1964 (I think that's when the PLO was formed), they had no interest in them at all.

A Palestinian state could easily have been created any time between 1949 and 1967 while Jordan and Egypt occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Not sure about hypocrisy. I think there are those who feign interest (this applies to most who weren't involved directly but were still part of the Arab League), and those who are self-interested, particularly Egypt - Nasser and Sadat. The Palestinian cause has never been popular with many and have long held a position similar to Kuwaitis, and Jordan and Lebanon have often been outright hostile in having to absorb Palestinians.

Yes, it could, but I wouldn't blame the Palestinians for that, and nor, I take it, do you?

Right, now that's sorted, I think, what would be your proposal for a just settlement? Toughy, this one.

I certainly don't blame the Palestinians. In fact I feel desperately sorry for them. It must be very depressing when your friends are as hostile to you as your enemies. In September 1970 (Black September) King Hussein turned his army on the PLO and many thousands were killed.

As for a just settlement, the ideal would have been the one proposed by the Anglo-American Commission of a non-sectarian state. One day that might happen but for the moment there would need to be the establishment of a Palestinian state roughly within the pre-1967 territories, with some give and take but that would need a couple of things. One is for a unified Palestinian leadership where the Islamists and more secular parts actually talked ot each other instead of killing each other. The second is cast-iron guarantees of security on both sides.

 

[Skashion]

As for a just settlement, the ideal would have been the one proposed by the Anglo-American Commission of a non-sectarian state.

One day that might happen but for the moment there would need to be the establishment of a Palestinian state roughly within the pre-1967 territories, with some give and take but that would need a couple of things.

One is for a unified Palestinian leadership where the Islamists and more secular parts actually talked ot each other instead of killing each other. The second is cast-iron guarantees of security on both sides.

A one-state solution would be my ideal also but it won't happen for a very very long time, if ever.

Are those what you consider to be the greatest barriers to it?

 

[coleridge]

I haven't read any of this thread and I not going to bother, as I have better things to do on my birthday [or any other day]. All I needed to see was PB telling everyone that UN Resolutions were ambiguous and that the Arabs 'did it'.

Why let the facts get in the way of a good old bit of close-minded prejudice. Oh and happy birthday. Have a good one.

Cheers PB. The facts speak for themselves. Haven't seen many Israelis in refugee camps lately. Anyway, I'll leave it with you as your masochism seems to know no bounds this week! Good luck with the defence of Zion but I don't even think that Marley could save you now...

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Why let the facts get in the way of a good old bit of close-minded prejudice. Oh and happy birthday. Have a good one.

Cheers PB. The facts speak for themselves. Haven't seen many Israelis in refugee camps lately.

Which illustrates my point about the Arab treatment of the Palestinians perfectly. All the refugees into Israel (and there were at least as many came in as Palestinians went the other way) were absorbed over a few years.

Whereas 60 years on, many Palestinians still linger in refugee camps, used as political pawns.

 

[mammutly]

Cheers PB. The facts speak for themselves. Haven't seen many Israelis in refugee camps lately.

Which illustrates my point about the Arab treatment of the Palestinians perfectly. All the refugees into Israel (and there were at least as many came in as Palestinians went the other way) were absorbed over a few years.

Whereas 60 years on, many Palestinians still linger in refugee camps, used as political pawns.

A staggering misrepresentation given that Israel absolutely denies any 'right to return' of refugees to their former homes. In fact, they see it as a threat to the state.

 

[buzzer1]

Which illustrates my point about the Arab treatment of the Palestinians perfectly. All the refugees into Israel (and there were at least as many came in as Palestinians went the other way) were absorbed over a few years.

Whereas 60 years on, many Palestinians still linger in refugee camps, used as political pawns.

A staggering misrepresentation given that Israel absolutely denies any 'right to return' of refugees to their former homes. In fact, they see it as a threat to the state.

This^^^^. Pb, as Muts says regs.. the non-return of refugees, it would be a start for the Govt.. to actually treat them with an ounce of dignity and respect, and one last one from me is this: could you please seperate Zionism from Judaism? You know the Jews would get along sise by side with any arabs or other, and have shown this in the past, but unfortunately the Zionists have jumped on the back of the Jewish name and used it as a trojan horse hence the Jews getting the bad press, the Zionist' aggression, destruction and complete non-sympathy towards the Palastinian people is one of the most desgraceful acts of Bullying of the modern era, i would go as far to say as it is THE biggest, by far, and what does the West do? they don't turn a blind eye they fkin back them without question, it's all wrong mate.

I'm off on the Korean thread, another shower with a bigger agenda, i feel a world population cull is on it's way.

 

[bluealf]

I guess if anyone would know it'd be you....

;)

Hahaha, he must be the David Dickenson of Mars.

Nice one lol

 

[Damocles]

I've found from experience that it's best to let things settle down before you post anything sensible on these types of threads.

But that's the point I keep making - it's not black and white as many try to make out. The situation is terribly complex and there's right and wrong on both sides but I hope for everyone's sake it gets sorted out.

Good post PB. Whilst much of what Israel does is questionable to say the least, I find it difficult to completely condemn them when you have groups like Hamas who openly admit that their aim is to wipe Israel off the face of the map.

That's another one of these myths that seems to have come up.

Hamas never said anything of the sort. Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has this quote attributed to him, and even that was a complete (some say deliberate) mistranslation. His actual quote was:

"The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem must [vanish from] from the page of time."

So in reality, he was quoting a saying from Khomeini which, in context, isn't that dissimilar from saying "we must not give up, we will win".

Besides, the whole idea of an Iranian threat to Israel or the rest of the world is fucking laughable. I'm more worried about the Shetland Islands invading Israel than Iran.
They have absolutely no air force. They have a military that hasn't invaded any land in over 100 years. Their soldiers are 20 years behind the times. They are several countries away from Israel and would get wiped out before they even crossed the border.

Israel is, by far, the biggest and baddest kid on the block in the Middle East. If you add the inevitable US involvement, they become a world power.

Anyway, even if Ahmadinejad DID say that he would "wipe Israel off of the Earth" (which he totally didn't), he wouldn't have the power to. Ahmadinejad doesn't control the Iranian military, Khamenei does. Khamenei is a total twat, but the one thing that he does better than nearly everyone is politic. He wouldn't be foolish enough to launch against Israel.

Everybody in the Western media paints Iran as full of crazies. To a certain extent that is true, yet the true leadership are all smart politicians. You have to be a smart politician to survive in Iran. The whole country consists of balancing three fiercely aggressive viewpoints to ensure that no one group gains too much power.

The thing that most of the public over here doesn't seem to understand, is that these people aren't insane or stupid. For example, you know why North Korea keep doing missile tests? Do you honestly think that it's because they plan to nuke the US or Japan? Of course they don't, it is suicide to do so. They do it because the next time they go to the negotiating table with the US, they can demand more aid from them as a concession to cut down on their tests. It's like the most expensive takeaway in the world.

Iran are somewhat similar. We over here are used to being in a position of dominance and rarely understand the behaviour of these smaller (in stature) countries. The fact of the matter is, Iran is playing the big tough man, because behind the scenes it is a country that is tearing itself apart. They need a common enemy to keep their civil obedience, and the US/Israel is a convenient patsy. This is no different from the US using terrorism/communism/fascism etc to keep their society obedient.
In addition to this, every good poker player knows that you always play with a bigger hand than you have.

 

[ElanJo]

I'd love to hear you rant at, say, China; one of the worst human rights abusers on the planet. They've occupied Tibet for the last 60 years and done far worse than the Israelis have done on the West Bank. Will they ever give it back to the Tibetans? They openly propr up and politically support even worse regimes like N Korea & Burma. Yet we welcome their leaders with open arms.

Then there's Russia - a mafia controlled country whose leader has killed far more than any Israeli, which murders journalists and has inflicted horrendous cruelties on Chechens. Yet we invited Putin on a state visit in 2003.

Yet all the ire of the liberal and hard left is foicused on Israel, a small and democratic country surrounded by bitter enemies and built on the murder of million Jews less than 70 years ago by a demagogue who blamed them for everything. Seems some things never change.

Talking of a demagogue...

Didn't take long for critics of the Israeli GOVERNMENT to be branded Nazi-esque Anti-Semites

 

[buzzer1]

I'd love to hear you rant at, say, China; one of the worst human rights abusers on the planet. They've occupied Tibet for the last 60 years and done far worse than the Israelis have done on the West Bank. Will they ever give it back to the Tibetans? They openly propr up and politically support even worse regimes like N Korea & Burma. Yet we welcome their leaders with open arms.

Then there's Russia - a mafia controlled country whose leader has killed far more than any Israeli, which murders journalists and has inflicted horrendous cruelties on Chechens. Yet we invited Putin on a state visit in 2003.

Yet all the ire of the liberal and hard left is foicused on Israel, a small and democratic country surrounded by bitter enemies and built on the murder of million Jews less than 70 years ago by a demagogue who blamed them for everything. Seems some things never change.

Talking of a demagogue...

Didn't take long for critics of the Israeli GOVERNMENT to be branded Nazi-esque Anti-Semites

Thats all that ever happens and not to the extent of being called a Nazi but it's happened in this thread, despite protestation from myself and others. Unfortunately the "blame everybody but myself" culture has escalated dramatically in society as we know it, hence the loonies have taken over.