Its the wum speaking here............

[Nixon_The_Bike_Thief]

Mate - Ireland is a box to box midfielder. The fact he plays more offensive than De Jong and Kompany means little as they are defensive midfielders. How often did you see him back in his own half making crucial challenges, launch it up to the forwards and then make a run to join them? I think he actually finished third in the Opta index for tackles made by midfielders last season. That's why he is superman.

If that isn't a box to box midfielder I don't know what is.

Compare this to Arshavin... who to me is a defacto attacking midfielder who isn't going to be tracking back much as his sole job is to create.

Look at how much of his play is in the final third compared to Stevie

You got a link to where thats from Project, Looks an interesting little tool and I'd like to see the legends and the options.

 

[Project]

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/chalkboards" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/chalkboards</a>

pretty amazing tool. you can look at tackles, interceptions, blocks, passes, shots and so on

Blue = successful pass
Red = unsuccessful
White = assist (though none made)

 

[Didsbury Dave]

That's interesting, Project, and your stats are interesting. Personally, I see little difirrence between the home game stats and the Arshavin stats. For Liverpool away we played a very defensive midfield and I'm not even sure Stevie played his usual role that day.I think I remember him playing wide right.

In fact, we had 3 holding midfielders that day and SI played in SWP's role.

I'm sure that's correct.

 

[bizzbo]

it's a great graphic, but the whole thing falls down on the comparison with arshavin. arshavin is a deep lying playmaking striker, or a playmaking winger, he is not in any real sense a midfielder.

I admit it sounds like splitting hairs, but the point that's being missed is that the difference between an attacking midfielder and a deep lying playmaking striker is a big one. to accomodate the attacking midfielder most teams now play two DM's, as with gerrard at liverpool. he may have the game to play the classic 'box-to-box' role, but that's not how benitez uses him. he is an attacking midfielder who tackles back and drops deep to get things going in the midfield. playing him as a box to box reduces his opportunities to start attacks in the final third. as he is always looking to get involved here, it leaves more work for the midfielder(s) behind him. it's exactly the same with stevie. he can tackle, drop deep and start the move, but he wants to get forward and attack. so he is an attacking midfielder. box to box is someone who not only can tackle, pass, shoot, and run from one end to the other all day, but someone who naturally balances his attacking and defending. in a 4-5-1 I think it's truer to call the defensive midfielder who looks to make attacking runs when the moment is right, a 'box-to-box' player.

 

[Project]

it's a great graphic, but the whole thing falls down on the comparison with arshavin. arshavin is a deep lying playmaking striker, or a playmaking winger, he is not in any real sense a midfielder.

Not really. The point I am trying to make is that the names of positions don't really mean much when a players remit is wider than the name. You bringing in terms like "playmaking striker" proves that. Because to me that means not quite a striker and not quite a midfielder. Which is exactly what you'd traditionally call an attacking midfielder (at least on Champ Man anyway lol). And his passing positions in the graphic absolutely indicate an "attacking midfielder" or however you want to call it.

I think the modern game has changed, and players are less likely to just sit in their little bit of space as defined by their "position". Evra at United doubles up as a winger in the absence of a true wide man. Rooney sort of plays CF, AM, LM and at times, LB... all in the same game. They call Ronaldo a winger but he is anything but. An out and out winger wouldn't score 40+ goals in one season. Truth is he spends a lot of time in the CF position, but goes wide when the team need width. Carrick and Alonso dictate the play for their respective teams but can do that from just in front of their back 4, to just in front of the opponents back 4.

@ Dave I just picked 2 random games. Go through any of them this season and you see the same pattern - Ireland plays the whole of the pitch.

 

[bizzbo]

he does play the whole of the pitch, but you can't rely on him to cover any position defensively when he is in his central attacking midfield/inside right role. he doesnt take up the right positions, his tackling back is more ad-hoc, reacting to a developing break, or pouncing on sluggish play. covering defenders is something else. it's not the way he thinks. box-to-box suggest a classic central midfielder in a fairly narrow 4-4-2, where the central midfielder would have to cover. I think it's misleading to suggest that this is ireland's game.

 

[Project]

he does play the whole of the pitch, but you can't rely on him to cover any position defensively when he is in his central attacking midfield/inside right role. he doesnt take up the right positions, his tackling back is more ad-hoc, reacting to a developing break, or pouncing on sluggish play. covering defenders is something else. it's not the way he thinks. box-to-box suggest a classic central midfielder in a fairly narrow 4-4-2, where the central midfielder would have to cover. I think it's misleading to suggest that this is ireland's game.

I think you are reading too much into it. Box to box midfielder to me means exactly what it says on the tin. He helps out DJ and the defence when he can, he helps out the forward line when he can. Pretty good definition on Wikipedia:

"The term 'box-to-box' player is often used to refer to the most dynamic all-round/complete midfielders, who provide both defensive and attacking prowess.[4] The most versatile of players, they typically possess exceptional stamina and are usually skilled at tackling, passing, shooting and keeping possession.[3]"

Pretty apt description of Ireland imo, given the number of goals and assists he had last season, and the 3rd highest number of tackles for a midfielder in the league, with a 70% tackle success rate.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

We're getting into semantics a bit here.

Ireland comes looking for the ball, but his position is as the most attacking of the midfielders. No doubt about that for me.

I would describe Michael Johnson as a "box to box" midfielder and possibly Barry, but I think Ireland is there to open up defences, not to be part of ours. Granted, he wins a few more tackles than the likes of Ali B.

Good debate anyway chaps.

 

[Project]

but his position is as the most attacking of the midfielders.

Well I wouldn't disagree with this. But the fact we play with 3 forwards rather than 2 means he has more defensive responsibilities than your average AM


Honestly think we will see him and Barry rotating in terms of who goes forward and who sits. With England Barry has to sit, but with De Jong here he has a lot to offer going forward too, particularly down the left hand side whipping in crosses.

 

[borassic]

Seriously though, why would you turn down 30 mill for that agiing, injury prone, overrated little inglander bag of shite?

jt is going to make a statement on thursday.
He will end this shit.
My source is 99,9 % confident he will remain.

where's the statement?