Nebuchadnezzar
Well-Known Member
You're absolutely right.
But I am referring to Sunday 30th January 1972. Which is why McClean won't wear a poppy. Which is what this thread is about.
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James McLean
- Thread starter Jamoid
- Start date
You're absolutely right.
But I am referring to Sunday 30th January 1972. Which is why McClean won't wear a poppy. Which is what this thread is about.
SWP's back
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Him being a dirty **** trying to take Walker’s knees off originally.You're absolutely right.
But I am referring to Sunday 30th January 1972. Which is why McClean won't wear a poppy. Which is what this thread is about.
Nebuchadnezzar
Well-Known Member
Him being a dirty **** trying to take Walker’s knees off originally.
And that I can't disagree with you on!
Peacefully protested? Mate,please take the time and do some proper research on the event you seem to know so much about. There's plenty of footage available on youtube etc. I' ve started to veer off topic on this thread so back to McWanker. We all know his tendencies but the shithouse won't come out and publicly state them, as for on the pitch ability-0%.Do you think the club do it out of respect, or because every other club does it and they feel they have to?
I would love it to be for entirely respectful reasons but can't help but feel that in this day and age, it is because nobody wants to be the club that didn't do it.
I don't share any views with James McClean but given his background, and where he is from and what happened there, I understand why the Catholic/Republican community of Derry have little affinity for an institution that gunned them down as they peacefully protested. Why this is so abhorrent to some mystifies me.
@Churchlawtonblue
I take your point about Britain's lone and admirable stand against the Nazis but you might want to read up on Churchills remarks about Ireland in his victory speech.
In a nutshell, he tried to claim glory for not invading Ireland - despite apparently being sorely tempted to do so. (There is a lot of evidence in Churchill's speeches to suggest that he felt that the establishment of the Free State and the breaking up of the Empire we're bitterly begrudged by him).
de Valera's response to the effect that Churchill, in his finest hour might want to give credit to a country that stood alone against tyranny, not for two or three years but for several centuries - and that Irish independence is not some gift bestowed by the benign grace of the larger nation next door, to be withdrawn as that larger nation's demands or sees fit, was a diplomatic coup de grâce.
My point is that the Churchills and the deValeras etc, they do very well, thank you, out of war (there's a reason why the man from an aristocratic family, Albert Spier, remained the only Nazi to sign off on the Final Solution to avoid the death penalty at Nuremberg). It's John and Mary Citizen - toiling in that mystical field or heavenly factory floor that old Socialists like me love to blather on about - it's they who suffer the most out of war and benefit the least. Let's face it, America won the war too and the Nazis are now somehow running the point.
A bunch of working class football supporters booing a working class man for refusing to kow-tow to this system is ultimately a sad thing when you view it through the prism of socialist thinking.
And no, I don't believe that McLean is acting out of a socialist principle (in spite of Sinn Féin's repeated claims to be a socialist party) but ultimately his actions are no different to Ulster rugby players not wanting to sing the Irish National Anthem. If it's ok for them, it's ok for McLean, I believe.
That said, his sliding tackle on Walker was a disgrace.
I take your point about Britain's lone and admirable stand against the Nazis but you might want to read up on Churchills remarks about Ireland in his victory speech.
In a nutshell, he tried to claim glory for not invading Ireland - despite apparently being sorely tempted to do so. (There is a lot of evidence in Churchill's speeches to suggest that he felt that the establishment of the Free State and the breaking up of the Empire we're bitterly begrudged by him).
de Valera's response to the effect that Churchill, in his finest hour might want to give credit to a country that stood alone against tyranny, not for two or three years but for several centuries - and that Irish independence is not some gift bestowed by the benign grace of the larger nation next door, to be withdrawn as that larger nation's demands or sees fit, was a diplomatic coup de grâce.
My point is that the Churchills and the deValeras etc, they do very well, thank you, out of war (there's a reason why the man from an aristocratic family, Albert Spier, remained the only Nazi to sign off on the Final Solution to avoid the death penalty at Nuremberg). It's John and Mary Citizen - toiling in that mystical field or heavenly factory floor that old Socialists like me love to blather on about - it's they who suffer the most out of war and benefit the least. Let's face it, America won the war too and the Nazis are now somehow running the point.
A bunch of working class football supporters booing a working class man for refusing to kow-tow to this system is ultimately a sad thing when you view it through the prism of socialist thinking.
And no, I don't believe that McLean is acting out of a socialist principle (in spite of Sinn Féin's repeated claims to be a socialist party) but ultimately his actions are no different to Ulster rugby players not wanting to sing the Irish National Anthem. If it's ok for them, it's ok for McLean, I believe.
That said, his sliding tackle on Walker was a disgrace.
Churchlawtonblue
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 3 Dec 2013
- Messages
- 14,696
@Churchlawtonblue
I take your point about Britain's lone and admirable stand against the Nazis but you might want to read up on Churchills remarks about Ireland in his victory speech.
In a nutshell, he tried to claim glory for not invading Ireland - despite apparently being sorely tempted to do so. (There is a lot of evidence in Churchill's speeches to suggest that he felt that the establishment of the Free State and the breaking up of the Empire we're bitterly begrudged by him).
de Valera's response to the effect that Churchill, in his finest hour might want to give credit to a country that stood alone against tyranny, not for two or three years but for several centuries - and that Irish independence is not some gift bestowed by the benign grace of the larger nation next door, to be withdrawn as that larger nation's demands or sees fit, was a diplomatic coup de grâce.
My point is that the Churchills and the deValeras etc, they do very well, thank you, out of war (there's a reason why the man from an aristocratic family, Albert Spier, remained the only Nazi to sign off on the Final Solution to avoid the death penalty at Nuremberg). It's John and Mary Citizen - toiling in that mystical field or heavenly factory floor that old Socialists like me love to blather on about - it's they who suffer the most out of war and benefit the least. Let's face it, America won the war too and the Nazis are now somehow running the point.
A bunch of working class football supporters booing a working class man for refusing to kow-tow to this system is ultimately a sad thing when you view it through the prism of socialist thinking.
And no, I don't believe that McLean is acting out of a socialist principle (in spite of Sinn Féin's repeated claims to be a socialist party) but ultimately his actions are no different to Ulster rugby players not wanting to sing the Irish National Anthem. If it's ok for them, it's ok for McLean, I believe.
That said, his sliding tackle on Walker was a disgrace.
Not disputing any of the above mad4city but with all due respect you havent answered the points i was making in my reponse. That the British Army and the UK government's actions and intentions helped to defend the freedom of the Irish free state during WW2. And theerfore you were actually a little bit wrong in your original asertion? Solving the rights and wrongs of a historical divided Ireland isnt going to happen on here . My wife is from NI and they have family north and south, its a great country and the north is much better these days than it was in the 80s . I just think that the more people can move on and not get involved in historical provocation the better. Be it ulster rugby players not singing anthems, people refusing to wear a poppy, or those that provocatively march to comemorate battles 100s of yrs ago. In my experience that is what the majority have always wanted. Cheers
I do agree with you on almost all of what you say but is it not a bit disingenuous to seek credit for defending Ireland's freedom from Nazi Germany at a time when your then Prime Minister - by his own admission - was contemplating invading the country?Not disputing any of the above mad4city but with all due respect you havent answered the points i was making in my reponse. That the British Army and the UK government's actions and intentions helped to defend the freedom of the Irish free state during WW2. And theerfore you were actually a little bit wrong in your original asertion? Solving the rights and wrongs of a historical divided Ireland isnt going to happen on here . My wife is from NI and they have family north and south, its a great country and the north is much better these days than it was in the 80s . I just think that the more people can move on and not get involved in historical provocation the better. Be it ulster rugby players not singing anthems, people refusing to wear a poppy, or those that provocatively march to comemorate battles 100s of yrs ago. In my experience that is what the majority have always wanted. Cheers
So, whilst there may be a small sliver of truth in your contention but it's not the whole truth.
I don't think we're going to agree on this but, may I just say, I'm glad that we could discuss it in a civil manner.
It worries me, this trend towards lionisation of the military machine. You have to ask yourself to what end is it being done. All of this virtue signaling which has hijacked the Poppy Appeal is quite distasteful, too.
Still, like I say, I'm happy that we have reached a point where it can be discussed civilly because otherwise, we're only condemning our children to play a role in the same horror story.
M18CTID
Well-Known Member
It's a free country. McLean's entitled to his opinion. And people who think he's twat are equally entitled to theirs.
Personally, I've got issues with "poppy fascism" in general. McLean's stance isn't against that though, and while I can fully understand someone from his background having this opinion, I can't help thinking that it goes some way beyond what he claims (I'm calling his explanation that if it was just for WW1 and WW2 that he'd be happy to wear one as complete and utter bollocks) and I'm guessing that he's someone who has a hatred of British people and Britain in general so it sticks in the craw a bit that he earns a very good living plying his trade in the English Premier League of all fucking places. As someone that has plenty of friends from the Irish Republic, I've seen the best and worst from that particular community. Generally, I've been made to feel very welcome when I've been over there and it's tended to be the Irish enclaves of Manchester where I've witnessed some of the shittiest behaviour. And not just to English people either. Astonishingly, a female friend from County Donegal who is married to a Mancunian of Irish Catholic descent copped a volley full of abuse one night in her sister's pub from one mouthy prick (funnily enough he's from Londonderry) who actually knows this couple but got into a needless argument with her and came out with something along the lines of "It's your fault for marrying an Englishman". The fact that he was arguing with one of the nicest people you could ever wish to meet tells you all you need to know about the ****.
Personally, I've got issues with "poppy fascism" in general. McLean's stance isn't against that though, and while I can fully understand someone from his background having this opinion, I can't help thinking that it goes some way beyond what he claims (I'm calling his explanation that if it was just for WW1 and WW2 that he'd be happy to wear one as complete and utter bollocks) and I'm guessing that he's someone who has a hatred of British people and Britain in general so it sticks in the craw a bit that he earns a very good living plying his trade in the English Premier League of all fucking places. As someone that has plenty of friends from the Irish Republic, I've seen the best and worst from that particular community. Generally, I've been made to feel very welcome when I've been over there and it's tended to be the Irish enclaves of Manchester where I've witnessed some of the shittiest behaviour. And not just to English people either. Astonishingly, a female friend from County Donegal who is married to a Mancunian of Irish Catholic descent copped a volley full of abuse one night in her sister's pub from one mouthy prick (funnily enough he's from Londonderry) who actually knows this couple but got into a needless argument with her and came out with something along the lines of "It's your fault for marrying an Englishman". The fact that he was arguing with one of the nicest people you could ever wish to meet tells you all you need to know about the ****.
Churchlawtonblue
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- Joined
- 3 Dec 2013
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- 14,696
I do agree with you on almost all of what you say but is it not a bit disingenuous to seek credit for defending Ireland's freedom from Nazi Germany at a time when your then Prime Minister - by his own admission - was contemplating invading the country?
So, whilst there may be a small sliver of truth in your contention but it's not the whole truth.
I don't think we're going to agree on this but, may I just say, I'm glad that we could discuss it in a civil manner.
It worries me, this trend towards lionisation of the military machine. You have to ask yourself to what end is it being done. All of this virtue signaling which has hijacked the Poppy Appeal is quite distasteful, too.
Still, like I say, I'm happy that we have reached a point where it can be discussed civilly because otherwise, we're only condemning our children to play a role in the same horror story.
Agree entirely. It's been a good debate, and to be honest i dont think we are not that far apart in our aims and ideals.
ccr
Well-Known Member
I can , in a way, see where he's coming from. I refuse to wear a big tall hat for what happened at Peterloo. Then again I'm not to clued up on history. Prefer to leave that to Traffs and scousers.