Johnson was as committed to Northern Powerhouse Rail as he had been to Crossrail

[Rascal]

Johnson loves the idea of big vanity projects

There was a man who employed Albert Speer to do similar vanity projects

 

[ctwrd]

Why not invest in making it easier for people to commute into cities from the outskirts rather than getting from one to the other. That is more important.

thousands commute into Manchester, Leeds etc from the outskirts with crap services available every day. The number travelling between Manchester and Leeds and elsewhere is a small fraction of that.

 

[metalblue]

The Chinese have built 23,500 miles of High Speed train lines in the last 13 years. Most of the country is covered on a grid system. The trains have a top speed of 268mph and they are planning to launch a new faster train in 2025 which has a top speed of a staggering 372mph (600km per hour). We are literally decades behind other nations including African countries, Turkey, Russia, let alone Europe etc etc. We will not be able to compete economically with these countries. We are a transport basket case and this disaster has been a long time in the making.

Pointless comparisons. China doesn’t give a fuck about building train lines through entire communities or irreversibly damaging areas of environmental importance. Nor does Russia - and nor does Turkey albeit to a slightly lesser extent.

The government will get dragged over the coals but - putting the politics aside for a moment - let’s not ignore that it’s still a huge investment we are putting into upgrading the infrastructure and Manchester has done well out of it. Significantly improving journey times for the majority rather than making it quicker to travel between 2 cities on the eastern side is, I think, a better result in the first instance. Like always some win some lose, but hopefully the majority wins.

There is the other new reality in all of this as well. Post COVID we won’t commute for work like we did before (commuter numbers are estimated to be ~30% lower than pre-COVID). Remote working will be the norm for many - you don’t need fast trains when you don’t leave your house. COVID may end up giving us “levelling up” (although of course Boris will try and take the credit for it).

 

[bobbyowenquiff]

Pointless comparisons. China doesn’t give a fuck about building train lines through entire communities or irreversibly damaging areas of environmental importance. Nor does Russia - and nor does Turkey albeit to a slightly lesser extent.

The government will get dragged over the coals but - putting the politics aside for a moment - let’s not ignore that it’s still a huge investment we are putting into upgrading the infrastructure and Manchester has done well out of it. Significantly improving journey times for the majority rather than making it quicker to travel between 2 cities on the eastern side is, I think, a better result in the first instance. Like always some win some lose, but hopefully the majority wins.

There is the other new reality in all of this as well. Post COVID we won’t commute for work like we did before (commuter numbers are estimated to be ~30% lower than pre-COVID). Remote working will be the norm for many - you don’t need fast trains when you don’t leave your house. COVID may end up giving us “levelling up” (although of course Boris will try and take the credit for it).

It is not just China though. High speed integrated transport is extensive across Europe. We need integrated transport systems to get people out of their cars and this won't happen till they have a genuine alternative. People living in London do not understand what it is like in the rest of the UK. It is not just about commuting. Today's investment is welcome but it is just scratching the surface. Britain remains a totally centralised country and that is just not sustainable. We have failed to properly upgrade transport systems for 50 years. We don't even have a fully electrified network. It is a national disgrace.

 

[BobKowalski]

Pointless comparisons. China doesn’t give a fuck about building train lines through entire communities or irreversibly damaging areas of environmental importance. Nor does Russia - and nor does Turkey albeit to a slightly lesser extent.

The government will get dragged over the coals but - putting the politics aside for a moment - let’s not ignore that it’s still a huge investment we are putting into upgrading the infrastructure and Manchester has done well out of it. Significantly improving journey times for the majority rather than making it quicker to travel between 2 cities on the eastern side is, I think, a better result in the first instance. Like always some win some lose, but hopefully the majority wins.

There is the other new reality in all of this as well. Post COVID we won’t commute for work like we did before (commuter numbers are estimated to be ~30% lower than pre-COVID). Remote working will be the norm for many - you don’t need fast trains when you don’t leave your house. COVID may end up giving us “levelling up” (although of course Boris will try and take the credit for it).

France has had high speed rail connections for nigh on 40 years. Germany the last 30 years. Spain has 3,000 km of high speed track. The fastest track in Italy connects all the major cities.

We have one track. One bloody high speed track and that’s the Eurostar link. And we peasants should be grateful for a few upgrades?

Why we continually accept second best and pay through the nose for it is bizarre, in fact we pretend it’s really not that bad. Partisan politics clouding rational thought and blinding us to reality. We pretend trade gravity doesn’t exist. We pretend distance is not a factor in trade. Now we are pretending we don’t need fast trains - and it’s about capacity as well as speed. This desire to handicap ourselves at every turn and insist the opposite is remarkable and somewhat creepy.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

France has had high speed rail connections for nigh on 40 years. Germany the last 30 years. Spain has 3,000 km of high speed track. The fastest track in Italy connects all the major cities.

We have one track. One bloody high speed track and that’s the Eurostar link. And we peasants should be grateful for a few upgrades?

Why we continually accept second best and pay through the nose for it is bizarre, in fact we pretend it’s really not that bad. Partisan politics clouding rational thought and blinding us to reality. We pretend trade gravity doesn’t exist. We pretend distance is not a factor in trade. Now we are pretending we don’t need fast trains - and it’s about capacity as well as speed. This desire to handicap ourselves at every turn and insist the opposite is remarkable and somewhat creepy.

Why do we want high-speed rail...

How are we supposed to build classrooms of the future with expensive purpose built high speed rolling stock?

 

[metalblue]

It is not just China though. High speed integrated transport is extensive across Europe. We need integrated transport systems to get people out of their cars and this won't happen till they have a genuine alternative. People living in London do not understand what it is like in the rest of the UK. It is not just about commuting. Today's investment is welcome but it is just scratching the surface. Britain remains a totally centralised country and that is just not sustainable. We have failed to properly upgrade transport systems for 50 years. We don't even have a fully electrified network. It is a national disgrace.

I don’t disagree with anything you have written.

I’d probably say commuting is the key drivers for improving our rails, economically no one really gives a shit about folk wanting to go to MeadowHell from Bradford an hour quicker. A quite frankly if it takes Mrs MB longer to get there I’m happier!! Infrastructure projects are generally considered to always give 100% return on investment but that is measured as efficiency for business (getting to meetings/work) rather than footfall in a shopping mall.

 

[metalblue]

France has had high speed rail connections for nigh on 40 years. Germany the last 30 years. Spain has 3,000 km of high speed track. The fastest track in Italy connects all the major cities.

We have one track. One bloody high speed track and that’s the Eurostar link. And we peasants should be grateful for a few upgrades?

Why we continually accept second best and pay through the nose for it is bizarre, in fact we pretend it’s really not that bad. Partisan politics clouding rational thought and blinding us to reality. We pretend trade gravity doesn’t exist. We pretend distance is not a factor in trade. Now we are pretending we don’t need fast trains - and it’s about capacity as well as speed. This desire to handicap ourselves at every turn and insist the opposite is remarkable and somewhat creepy.

Much of that is reasonable, capacity (and what to do when a train breaks down and blocks the line) are hugely important. Cost is another good point. I don’t think it’ll be a “few upgrades” though. It’s serious money they are throwing at it.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

I think there is some (deliberate in some cases, such as politicians) confused use of highspeed.
Bullet train type speed - the UK has very little use for this. The east coast, some of the west coast and maybe some of the GWR have stretched that it could be used, but the UK is small with towns close to each other, and has hills in awkward places for this level. The Eurostar only uses its speed really on the continent.
InterCity speed - something closer to this is probably what's of interest in most places. It will speed up journeys quite enough. To do so will require a lot of digging, but I assume the main issue is that lots of signalling would need ripping out and rebuilding. I guess they can ask Dido to deal with it.

The claim from Johnson this morning that the journey time from Birmingham to Nottingham would be reduced to 26 minutes sounds optimistic.

@bobbyowenquiff mentioned integrated systems. That's the key thing, far more than bit part construction and planning. Roads, rail, homes, services for those homes - but it's a risk for any govt. Upset locals due to disruption over many years would be the outcome

What was the whole timescale for the Manchester tram? How long will it be in Leeds? I don't know how much planning has been done for putting the Leeds system in, but it seems likely to be a longterm project which will be hacked around several times.

The guff about "people in London" is a little tedious. I'm sure there are some around the place that only care about their area/commute, but tarring everyone is a bit daft. I expect a very large amount of people would be fully behind better networks in other places, but we don't have a say in it happening. The beneficiaries of much of the work are those living in commuter belt, not London itself.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Why not invest in making it easier for people to commute into cities from the outskirts rather than getting from one to the other. That is more important.

thousands commute into Manchester, Leeds etc from the outskirts with crap services available every day. The number travelling between Manchester and Leeds and elsewhere is a small fraction of that.

Diversion tactics. Carry on, pal.