Kamala Harris

[lloydie]

Amen to that!

@Dax777, this is just for you. I don’t know quite why I’m bothering with this particularly boring bit of jurisprudence, perhaps I am hoping that you break the habit of a lifetime and accept you were wrong in your insistence that J6 was not an insurrection. My response is not particularly polished but I can’t be bothered to add lustre.
Your statement was ‘J6 was NOT an insurrection. It was a protest.’
INSURRECTION
An insurrection is an act or series of acts committed by an ORGANISED group with the PURPOSE of usurping the legitimate government or preventing it from taking office. An insurrection has various CHARACTERISTICS which are: the acts are illegal or unconstitutional, they are usually extra parliamentary, and they always include violence.
J6
Was there an organised group?
Two days after Biden won the 2020 election, lawyers acting for Trump hired a series of rooms at the Willard hotel in Washington to provide a place in which to plan the insurrection. Several high ranking Trump advisors attended meetings including Guiliani and John Eastman. Leaders of several militia such as the Proud Boys also attended meetings.
At the same time various meetings took place in several states and the plan to subvert the Electoral College by creating false certification documents was hatched.
The purpose of these documents was to replace the EC’s vote for Biden. with a vote declaring Trump the winner.
In the run up to J6 Trump attempted to persuade VP PENCE that he had the power to replace the genuine EC votes or to refer the vote
back to the states. So J6 was put together by an organised group.
METHODS.
The methods used included forgery, false declarations by the replacement EC voters, and the unconstitutional attempt to refer the vote back to the states.
Pence consulted the most prominent conservative Jurist, Judge Michael Luttig who advised that the VP had no power under the constitution to do anything other than tot up the EC Certificates and declare the result. So the methods used were illegal and unconstitutional.
J6 Violence.
The violence on J6 was not extempore but carefully planned at the Willard. The various militia groups were on the Ellipse specifically for that purpose as was Trump. He enjoined them to “Fight like hell or you won’t have a country” and to “Stop the Steal”. That is, their purpose was to prevent the legitimate government from taking office and replace it with Republican usurpers.
Failure.
Why did the insurrection fail?
First, the organisation of the false certificates was erratic. One state group forged the documents and then posted them in the US Mail.
The false certificates never reached the hands of the VP.
Second, Pence was persuaded by Luttig that he did not have the power to modify the EC vote in any way and he refused to do so.
Conclusion.
It is clear that this was an organised attempt to usurp to legitimate government using illegal, unconstitutional acts and violence. A classic insurrection.
Was it a protest?
A protest does not have the objective of usurping the government but rather attempts to persuade the gov to change policy. It is perfectly acceptable as a democratic action, though any associated violence is not.
It is clear that those who took part in J6 were not attempting to change any government policy. So it was not a protest.

So, I contend that J6 was an insurrection and that Dax is flat wrong.
Over to you @Dax777 .

I made some of the same points, & some others in the Kamala thread in reply to you, if you still disagree could you explain why?

Edit; @Dax777

 

[KS55]

I made some of the same points, & some others in the Kamala thread in reply to you, if you still disagree could you explain why?

I assume that is a question for @Dax777

 

[KS55]

I appreciate the earnest response (it rarely happens on here these days).

I disagree with some of your points, especially those related to the economy and economic policy (as that is my field of study and expertise), but I am not sure there is much to be gained by debating them at this time.

I will just say that I don’t think a Harris presidency would be perfect or make absolutely everyone’s life better.

But I do think her presidency would be substantially more beneficial to not only most people in the US, but for the country in general, compared to Trump. And I do not think one can exaggerate how big an ‘utilitarianism gap’ I believe there is between Harris and Trump.

And as father of a newly minted American who will have to directly or indirectly deal with the direction the US takes over the next few decades as he grows to be an adult—one that I will very likely not be around to guide and support through that journey—what happens over the next week (and months, unfortunately) are very important to me. Especially given his mother will soon be his sole caregiver (she really nearly is already) and that will be made even more difficult if MAGA is allowed to gain control of the Presidency in addition to the Judiciary (and, I shudder to say, Congress) and are able to continue to strip rights away from women. And if he ends up being neurodivergent like me, and/or his gender or sexuality conflicts with what MAGA consider acceptable norms (which is essentially white straight neuroconforming cisgender male), his rights will also likely be limited, as well.

Fortunately, they have an escape route to several other countries due to our multi-citizenship status. But that requires a lot of upheaval, effort, money, and risk in of itself. So being forced in to that sort of action is pretty destructive, and most Americans will not have that option.

Come to the UK! Healthcare free at the point of use. Discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation etc illegal, marry who you please of any sex. What more do you need? Oh, biggest tax hike in history this week. Sorry.

 

[lloydie]

I assume that is a question for @Dax777

It was, apologies if unclear.

 

[Dax777]

Fundamental difference is that J6 was avowedly an attempt to "Stop the steal", i.e they were trying to halt the legal process of the transfer of power. They tried because they felt it was resulting from an alledgedly corrupt election of a political opponent, where (and despite) every legal avenue having been persued.
They failed because no evidence, convincing or otherwise, was produced, and nor has it been produced since.
It was blatently an attempt, outside constitutional remedies, to acheive an outcome that could not be shown as justified by the election result or the conduct of the election itself.

You may recall (or choose not to) that there were protests following Trumps election in 2016 that didn't attempt to stop the transfer of power.

The BLM riots et al, whilst awful to watch, made no real attempt to usurp the Government or the Constitution of the USA.

Very good points. What would you say constitutes usurping the government?

 

[lloydie]

Very good points. What would you say constitutes usurping the government?

usurp
/juːˈzəːp,jʊˈzəːp/
verb
take (a position of power or importance) illegally or by force.
"Richard usurped the throne"
Similar:
seize
take over
expropriate
take possession of
take
appropriate
steal
wrest
arrogate
commandeer
annex
assume

take the place of (someone in a position of power) illegally; supplant.
"the Hanoverian dynasty had usurped the Stuarts"
Similar:
oust
overthrow
remove
topple
unseat
depose
dethrone
eject
dispel
succeed
supplant
replace
fill someone's boots
crowd out
defenestrate
deprive
archaic
encroach or infringe upon (someone's rights).
"the Church had usurped upon the domain of the state"

 

[hillbillyliar]

Hard to say I am a trump supporter . I am more anti left.

My two big issues on this election are economic (mainly inflation especially since I have had a raise in four years) and immigration… illegal immigration and illegal immigrants in this country.

A few years ago the left mantra was “separated families”. Well my family has been separated for years since my adopted daughters have been waiting over 6 years to come here…

I am married to an American citizen and we have filed an application for residency so I can join her in the US. Our immigration lawyer told us that waiting times for processing were twice as long as normal when Trump was president and so we should expect to be delayed if Trump is elected.

 

[KS55]

usurp
/juːˈzəːp,jʊˈzəːp/
verb
take (a position of power or importance) illegally or by force.
"Richard usurped the throne"
Similar:
seize
take over
expropriate
take possession of
take
appropriate
steal
wrest
arrogate
commandeer
annex
assume

take the place of (someone in a position of power) illegally; supplant.
"the Hanoverian dynasty had usurped the Stuarts"
Similar:
oust
overthrow
remove
topple
unseat
depose
dethrone
eject
dispel
succeed
supplant
replace
fill someone's boots
crowd out
defenestrate
deprive
archaic
encroach or infringe upon (someone's rights).
"the Church had usurped upon the domain of the state"

In this context, “step into the shoes of” is good.

 

[KS55]

Very good points. What would you say constitutes usurping the government?

My definition of insurrection included ‘preventing the legitimate gov from taking office. That is a common scenario after an election in not very well established democracies.
Come on, Dax, get off the pot. Was J6 an insurrection?

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Secret ballot.

I really don’t think a Trump second term would either help or hurt my family. If Harris gets in and passes a tax on unrealized gains, then yes that can hurt me financially. That would definitely hurt some members of my family who have more money than I do. Having said that they are hard core Democrats.

I don’t live my life relying on other people. I don’t enjoy having other people wielding power/ control over my destiny.

Having said that real wages in Trumps four years rose 8.2%. Under this administration they have risen 1%-US govt stats. Factor in that inflation has been raging the past four years compared to the previous four.

Add to this I haven’t received a raise in four years. The evil corporation that I work for a big Harris/Walz supporters. I know this to be true not only seeing the actions of my company but I know people VERY high up and this is definitely true.

You seem to have excluded from the equation the fact that he’s certifiably fucking insane.

Do you not think that might possibly have the capacity to hurt your family in some way?