Keir Starmer

[Postman Pep]

For all the talk of him pivoting to the right, comparatively John McDonnell moved a lot further when he was trying to get Labour into power.

Labour fought 2017 on a platform that was very similar to Miliband's 2015 plans, and even by 2019 there wasn't a hugely ambitious socialist manifesto. McDonnell spent plenty of time courting business, insisting he wouldn't ever be reckless, and that Labour wouldn't rock the boat too much. The policies Labour announced at the last conference weren't that dissimilar in scope.

In what world are these 2 'very similar'?

Election 2015: Labour manifesto at-a-glance

Labour launches its manifesto ahead of the general election. Here are some of the key points.

www.bbc.com

Labour manifesto at-a-glance: Summary of key points

Labour launches its manifesto ahead of the general election. Here are some of the key points.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Postman Pep]

Another day another pledge burned.

 

[bluenova]

In what world are these 2 'very similar'?

Election 2015: Labour manifesto at-a-glance

Labour launches its manifesto ahead of the general election. Here are some of the key points.

www.bbc.com

Labour manifesto at-a-glance: Summary of key points

Labour launches its manifesto ahead of the general election. Here are some of the key points.

www.bbc.co.uk

50p tax rate, increased childcare, national investment bank, increase to minimum wage, ban zero-hours contracts, energy freeze/central regulation of energy market, capping rail fares via regulator v nationalisation, reducing tuition fees v scrapping them, building 200,000 homes a year v one million in parliament, new homes to have priority for local people, big NHS increases.

There are also plenty of things mentioned in 2015, like rent controls, net zero commitments, scrapping the House of Lords that aren't in 2017, while 2017 has a lot more on employment rights and nationalisation.

There are certainly areas where Labour 2017 went further, but there are other areas where they scaled back, and they made a big play on how they were being fiscally responsible and everything was paid for. The defence section in 2017 committed to Trident and the 2% of GDP spending, was clearly aimed at challenging any suggestion that Labour were soft on defence, while they also committed to the Triple Lock to target Tory voting pensioners.

There is no way that the 2017 or even 2019 manifestos were full representations of the politics that Corbyn and McDonnell had been campaigning on for years. They were a move left, but, just those defence pledges show they were still a huge compromise in a bid to win power.

 

[Rascal]

For me the danger here is that, by winning, it crystallises the notion in the Labour Party that to win power you need to be much more like the tories. If he had at least stuck to some socialist notions we could see there was appetite in this country for a fairer society (which I believe there is).

I do have a certain sympathy for this (probably) incoming Labour government in that they don’t have the financial headroom to make commitments they would perhaps naturally gravitate towards however there is zero excuse to desert those socialist roots entirely even if it has to be pitched with a dose of realism - ie not this term. They have lurched so far and hard they have become more Tory than the tories - it’s almost like they are terrified to stand up for what they believe in and anyone in the party who isn’t is shown the door. Completely unnecessary in my opinion.

The fact you are hoping he is lying and will be more socialist when he gets in (and many traditional Labour voters probably feel the same way) tells us what a sorry state we are in right now. If they do fail to move back towards the centre-left at a minimum after an election victory then this suffocates the centre right and pushes the tories further right. Eventually that further right tory party will be elected when folk are fed up with the Labour government.

It is the slow incremental shift in the Overton window to the right that has negated any form of left wing thinking. As you rightly opine it will push the Tories further rightwards, the centre ground follow and the Labour party becomes even more a party of capital rather than labour.

Starmer seems frightened about stating the fucking obvious, such as the IMF saying rising corporate profits account for almost half the increase in the Pan European inflation rate over the last two years as companies increased prices more than spiking costs of imported energy. That makes the perfect argument for renationalisation, done not for "socialist" ideological reasons but to help lower inflation so struggling families suffer less. There is no ambition though, the Labour party seems happy to be in thrall to capitalism.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

It is the slow incremental shift in the Overton window to the right that has negated any form of left wing thinking. As you rightly opine it will push the Tories further rightwards, the centre ground follow and the Labour party becomes even more a party of capital rather than labour.

Starmer seems frightened about stating the fucking obvious, such as the IMF saying rising corporate profits account for almost half the increase in the Pan European inflation rate over the last two years as companies increased prices more than spiking costs of imported energy. That makes the perfect argument for renationalisation, done not for "socialist" ideological reasons but to help lower inflation so struggling families suffer less. There is no ambition though, the Labour party seems happy to be in thrall to capitalism.

Starmer is just a puppet to act as a caretaker of corporate interests for five years while the Tories re brand.

 

[Postman Pep]

50p tax rate, increased childcare, national investment bank, increase to minimum wage, ban zero-hours contracts, energy freeze/central regulation of energy market, capping rail fares via regulator v nationalisation, reducing tuition fees v scrapping them, building 200,000 homes a year v one million in parliament, new homes to have priority for local people, big NHS increases.

Unsurprisingly there is plenty of overlap, particularly in terms of shared aspirations but this isn't about vague similarities. Just to pick one of your comparisons. How is pledging to reduce tuition fees 'very similar' to scrapping them entirely?

There are also plenty of things mentioned in 2015, like rent controls, net zero commitments, scrapping the House of Lords that aren't in 2017,

Yeah plenty. But you still missed/skirted around the obvious.

while 2017 has a lot more on employment rights and nationalisation.

Yeah like 2 whole entire sub-sections!

There are certainly areas where Labour 2017 went further, but there are other areas where they scaled back, and they made a big play on how they were being fiscally responsible and everything was paid for.

There is only one of those manifestos centred around 'balancing the books' and 'reducing the deficit'. Where was this big play? Must have been more subtle than Eds austerity lite message ... certainly got 3 million more votes.

The defence section in 2017 committed to Trident and the 2% of GDP spending, was clearly aimed at challenging any suggestion that Labour were soft on defence, while they also committed to the Triple Lock to target Tory voting pensioners.

There is no way that the 2017 or even 2019 manifestos were full representations of the politics that Corbyn and McDonnell had been campaigning on for years. They were a move left, but, just those defence pledges show they were still a huge compromise in a bid to win power.

Never said they were to be fair. But then again you were the one who started comparing. I just looked them up for context!.
Now you've got me reminiscing..... that 2017 Brexit pledge ...

 

[bluenova]

Unsurprisingly there is plenty of overlap, particularly in terms of shared aspirations but this isn't about vague similarities. Just to pick one of your comparisons. How is pledging to reduce tuition fees 'very similar' to scrapping them entirely?

Yeah plenty. But you still missed/skirted around the obvious.

Yeah like 2 whole entire sub-sections!

There is only one of those manifestos centred around 'balancing the books' and 'reducing the deficit'. Where was this big play? Must have been more subtle than Eds austerity lite message ... certainly got 3 million more votes.

Never said they were to be fair. But then again you were the one who started comparing. I just looked them up for context!.
Now you've got me reminiscing..... that 2017 Brexit pledge ...

Complaining?

Nothing of the sort - I was pointing out that Labour tried to appeal to voters across the political spectrum under Corbyn and McDonnell too.

Well before the 2017 election, McDonnell announced a "fiscal credibility" rule, which said no spending for day to day commitments. He specifically said it wasn't a commitment to spending more that the Tories, and he promised Labour would reduce national debt by the end of their first parliament.

There was nothing subtle about it - he regularly met up with business leaders and gave speeches telling them that Labour could be trusted with the economy.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Doing a great job. Consistently polling above the Tories and looking like Labour will trounce them at the next GE. Could fuck it up if he moves to far left or right, looks like his analysts and PR are getting this right

I‘ll be glad to see the Tories purged from this planet, literally.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Doing a great job. Consistently polling above the Tories and looking like Labour will trounce them at the next GE. Could fuck it up if he moves to far left or right, looks like his analysts and PR are getting this right

I‘ll be glad to see the Tories purged from this planet, literally.

They'll be back after one to two terms max. Starmer has no vision beyond his analysts and pr teams. He lies more than anyone else in public office besides Boris, but now he's gone so I suppose starmer gets the golden boot of lies and u turns. Once the initial honeymoon is over the electorate will realise they are being treated to a reheat of the Cameron/Osbourne austerity package and frustration will lead to the unthinkable - the Tories getting back in.

 

[blueinsa]

Doing a great job. Consistently polling above the Tories and looking like Labour will trounce them at the next GE. Could fuck it up if he moves to far left or right, looks like his analysts and PR are getting this right

I‘ll be glad to see the Tories purged from this planet, literally.

Starmer will oversee a Conservative with a small “c” government and within the space of one to two governments max, the Tories will get back in as Starmer and co suffer from not delivering on promises like they all do.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s time for a change but honestly, we will be getting much of the same politically I’m afraid.