Keir Starmer

[Vic]

The argument makes sense against the counter factual claim of Blair's popularity. Yes, he won two elections while in office and in a first past the post system that's all that matters, but in the face of very weak opposition he lost millions of voters and finally, the crushing blow, he lost his party.

As for Blair's achievements, if you were around at the time you benefited from them, but very few have survived austerity because they were not rooted in societal change, so the Tories could dismantle them very quickly.

I guess I'm older than you, but I get the impression more survives today from Harold Wilson's time in office than Blair's.

If the Northern Ireland agreement folds they'll be little left of Blair's achievements, other than a fading memory.

You're blaming Blair for the Tories' evil?

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

You're blaming Blair for the Tories' evil?

Weird take but probably more about discrediting Blair, as the the last line shows.

 

[PPT]

You were complaining that he wore a jacket.

I'm complaining that he misused Iraq intelligence and deceived Parliament.
I'm complaining that he lied to Parliament to fulfil his war promise to Bush
I'm complaining he sent squaddies to their death without sufficient evidence.
I'm complaining that he used his position of office to blatantly increase his
own personal wealth by tens of millions of pounds.
And yeah I'm complaining he sucked the cock of Bush by wearing his jacket.
If you are Ok with all of that then good for you.

 

[The perfect fumble]

It's a bit easy to suggest that the opposition was weak. Do you really think it was an aberration in the last forty years and the Tories were only poor when Blair was in power? John Major won more votes than any other PM in history in the election before 1997, and William Hague and Michael Howard weren't noticeably poorer than Cameron, Johnson, May or Truss.

"Not rooted in societal change" seems to be an easy way of dismissing without actually making an argument. Of course austerity reversed many of Labour's achievements, but plenty sustained. You can argue details, but I don't see the Tories dismantling the minimum wage (instead they tried to rebrand it as their own). It's taken 12 years, and a genuinely crazy chancellor, for the idea of automatic holiday entitlement to be challenged and I'd be pretty shocked if that went.

Austerity couldn't knock down schools built under Labour, and while it hacks away at budgets, staffing levels at schools are hugely different to when I attended. Apart from the class teachers, our entire primary had one part-time assistant to cover the whole school - now my son's school has multiple people in his class, help for kids with special needs, specialist sports teachers, cover for the class teacher to prepare work and much more.

While there are many issues with self-employment and zero-hours contracts, you won't get many Tories arguing about "natural levels of unemployment" anymore, or policies which put people out of jobs in order to meet some abstract target elsewhere in the economy.

We still have free nursey places, and no sign that's going anywhere, with the scheme being expanded under the Tories.

The Scottish and Welsh assemblies still appear to be in place.

The changes made to pensions and benefits for over-65s have bedded into society so well that we now have arguments over whether pensioners are too well off!

Are the Tories likely to bring back section 28 or withdraw civil partnerships?

I could go on, and I'm sure you can argue details, but a lot of the changes under New Labour weren't just positive at the time, but have also endured.

Harold Wilson was the leader who presided over the great liberalising governments of the 1960s, which ended capital punishment and paved the way for the decriminalisation of homosexuality, legalised abortion and promoted women in politics, that pursued full employment and built homes at the rate of 400,000 a year, that ended theatre censorship. The governments whose policies led to a more equal society than any before or since by bringing in the Race Relations Act and introducing the Equal Pay Act.

He was the father of the Open University and my personal favourite the expansion of Red Brick universities. I don't suppose you remember student grants? Blair killed them off.

And that is just at home: abroad Wilson governments kept Britain out of the Vietnam war without sacrificing relations with the US, we'll move swiftly on in that regard for Blair.

I would argue that nothing Blair did changed the dial and subsequent events have borne this out, the things you listed were in tune with the zeitgeist of the time, and despite a relatively buoyant economy all the nice shiny stuff was funded on borrowing and the dreaded PFI.

Blair ran the country in the shadow of Thatcherism, he accepted the basic tenets of neoliberalism. But the most damning fact of all for a Labour Prime Minister, at the end of his tenure social mobility was no different than when he was elected and Income inequality changed little.

 

[Bigga]

Ah, you’re turning into Bigga. Shame.

Seems you’d rather keep the Tories in power to make sure this doesn’t happen.

An interesting take.

LOL!!

Pathetic viewpoint!

 

[Bigga]

You don't have an answer.

Let me get something straight, I can't stand much of the left in the Labour Party, I despise the London-centric, public school entitled tossers, feigning a East End accent, wallowing in identity politics, spotty Herberts who wouldn't piss on the working class if they were on fire.

But without them and the remnants of the working class left, Labour will turn into the US Democrats as sure as eggs is eggs, if only coz the membership fees and Union subs will dry up and Starmer will have to go begging to the likes of Sainsburys.

The Labour Party is absolutely skint, you do know that?

A word in your shell like, if you want to debate that's fine, but insult me again and I'm off to the Smiths thread to slash my wrists.

They're £7M in debt since the membership reduced.

They're already rattling their tins...

 

[The perfect fumble]

You're blaming Blair for the Tories' evil?

You're not being serious.

The reason we're in this mess is not because of Brexit, or Johnson, or Truss and her Chancellor, they're just symptoms of a malignant ideology, one that drives us to make these catastrophic mistakes over and over again.

Unless that is addressed we'll continue to fuck up.

We might have a remission from time to time, a slackening of the whip with a Trust Me I'm Tony, or a Call Me Dave or Sir Keir Centre Ground, but that's all they are, temporary, and then we start all over again

 

[bluenova]

Harold Wilson was the leader who presided over the great liberalising governments of the 1960s, which ended capital punishment and paved the way for the decriminalisation of homosexuality, legalised abortion and promoted women in politics, that pursued full employment and built homes at the rate of 400,000 a year, that ended theatre censorship. The governments whose policies led to a more equal society than any before or since by bringing in the Race Relations Act and introducing the Equal Pay Act.

He was the father of the Open University and my personal favourite the expansion of Red Brick universities. I don't suppose you remember student grants? Blair killed them off.

And that is just at home: abroad Wilson governments kept Britain out of the Vietnam war without sacrificing relations with the US, we'll move swiftly on in that regard for Blair.

I would argue that nothing Blair did changed the dial and subsequent events have borne this out, the things you listed were in tune with the zeitgeist of the time, and despite a relatively buoyant economy all the nice shiny stuff was funded on borrowing and the dreaded PFI

Blair ran the country in the shadow of Thatcherism, he accepted the basic tenets of neoliberalism. But the most damning fact of all for a Labour Prime Minister, at the end of his tenure social mobility was no different than when he was elected and Income inequality changed little.

Are we really arguing about between two Labour leaders?

Many of the achievements of Wilson are reflected in Blair/Brown's achievements. I doubt Wilson would claim to own the sixties sexual revolution, anymore than New Labour would claim the 2000s social Zeitgeist. They still both acted, which is more than the Tories did.

I also remember student grants, and the cuts to benefits & housing benefit for students, grants>loans were all started at the end of the Thatcher govt/early Major. Labour under Blair did cut the much diminished grant in the late 90s, but then reintroduced them. Student financing is much more complex than "Major/Blair cut back" given the huge increase in numbers attending University under their watch.

I really can't understand how we had 18 years of Tory govt, where wage councils were abolished, employment rights cut back, pensioners treated as a burden, schools allowed to crumble, yet when Labour got into the power the only reason they made changes was because of the Zeitgeist.

You're clearly a clever guy, but that's very, very disingenuous.

 

[Phil1]

I'm complaining that he misused Iraq intelligence and deceived Parliament.
I'm complaining that he lied to Parliament to fulfil his war promise to Bush
I'm complaining he sent squaddies to their death without sufficient evidence.
I'm complaining that he used his position of office to blatantly increase his
own personal wealth by tens of millions of pounds.
And yeah I'm complaining he sucked the cock of Bush by wearing his jacket.
If you are Ok with all of that then good for you.

What’s the second verse?

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Harold Wilson was the leader who presided over the great liberalising governments of the 1960s, which ended capital punishment and paved the way for the decriminalisation of homosexuality, legalised abortion and promoted women in politics, that pursued full employment and built homes at the rate of 400,000 a year, that ended theatre censorship. The governments whose policies led to a more equal society than any before or since by bringing in the Race Relations Act and introducing the Equal Pay Act.

He was the father of the Open University and my personal favourite the expansion of Red Brick universities. I don't suppose you remember student grants? Blair killed them off.

And that is just at home: abroad Wilson governments kept Britain out of the Vietnam war without sacrificing relations with the US, we'll move swiftly on in that regard for Blair.

I would argue that nothing Blair did changed the dial and subsequent events have borne this out, the things you listed were in tune with the zeitgeist of the time, and despite a relatively buoyant economy all the nice shiny stuff was funded on borrowing and the dreaded PFI.

Blair ran the country in the shadow of Thatcherism, he accepted the basic tenets of neoliberalism. But the most damning fact of all for a Labour Prime Minister, at the end of his tenure social mobility was no different than when he was elected and Income inequality changed little.

Looks like they both performed well during their tenancies but both were followed by leaders who wanted to dismantle their efforts.