Kolarov

[taconinja]

I honestly think I disagree with every point you make. The only one area our opinions diverge slightly is that Lescott isn't the best with the ball at his feet. But to blame that on the result/preformance on WEdensday, and to say we have a problem with long balls is just ludicrous to me.

I enjoyed the debate anyway mate, it's what the forum's for.

I enjoy it as well. I certainly don't need to be agreed with in order to enjoy the discussion (and I'm aware you don't either.) :)

I do think these are two very separate points, though, and the long-ball subject really has less to do with the Napoli match than the passing. Also, I'm not trying to blame the performance on anyone. I do think we should have started Clichy, but I'm not sure we would have gotten the ball to them any better. That's unknowable, though. Unless I'm misremembering, our most successful passing duo was Lescott and Kompany to each other. I would prefer that not to be the case. Sometimes our attacks just ground to a halt and I think if we're going to continue to pursue this style and formation, we need to work out how to accomplish that initial pass to get things started against a team so dedicated to having 11 men sitting fairly deep. We'll need our version of Puyol or Pique to initiate that sequence.

 

[Comrade Buka]

Anyways as I've stated, you could have started any fullbacks you wanted and it wouldn't have sorted out our weakness in the match, which was Barry-Kompany-Lescott. None of the three had a good enough performance.

This was your initial statement I commented on.

Are you challenged in some way? It's an honest question.

Feel free to explain what it was I misunderstood.

That they likely still wouldn't have gotten the service they needed to make best use of their runs.

Which boils down to Kompany's, Lescott's and Barry's passing?

 

[taconinja]

This was your initial statement I commented on.



Feel free to explain what it was I misunderstood.

That they likely still wouldn't have gotten the service they needed to make best use of their runs.

Which boils down to Kompany's, Lescott's and Barry's passing?

At times, yes. When the opposition sits deep, you will sometimes need your less advanced midfielders and your central defenders to chip a ball or reverse the field or hit an advanced midfielder on the run, i.e. pass into space, in order to disrupt defensive positioning. I really, really, REALLY hate using this example, but it's something that both Tottenham and the rags are good at doing. We needed both more runs from our fullbacks and better ball placement. I am in agreement that having fullbacks behind their defense would have been disruptive. I'm simply not convinced we would have gotten the ball to them as quickly or effectively as needed.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Sometimes our attacks just ground to a halt and I think if we're going to continue to pursue this style and formation, we need to work out how to accomplish that initial pass to get things started against a team so dedicated to having 11 men sitting fairly deep. We'll need our version of Puyol or Pique to initiate that sequence.

But that's the point. Getting the ball to our playmakers and front men wasn't a problem. But the tight way Napoli played, combined with below par performances from them, meant they were running into brick walls and/or losing posession. OVerlapping fullbacks would have given them an outlet that they didn't have, and also would have drawn defenders and thus created space for the playmakers to exploit. Lescott, Kompany and Barry are totally irrelevant to this point.

 

[Comrade Buka]

That they likely still wouldn't have gotten the service they needed to make best use of their runs.

Which boils down to Kompany's, Lescott's and Barry's passing?

At times, yes. When the opposition sits deep, you will sometimes need your less advanced midfielders and your central defenders to chip a ball or reverse the field or hit an advanced midfielder on the run, i.e. pass into space, in order to disrupt defensive positioning. I really, really, REALLY hate using this example, but it's something that both Tottenham and the rags are good at doing. We needed both more runs from our fullbacks and better ball placement. I am in agreement that having fullbacks behind their defense would have been disruptive. I'm simply not convinced we would have gotten the ball to them as quickly or effectively as needed.

You are going to hate me for this, I bloody hate myself for this ;), but this brings us all the way back to:

It's 2nd half. Time for Mancini to make a sub. His first sub should have been Kolo for Lescott or Kompany?

Since your reasoning is that our attacking play was poor due to the passing of the above mentioned defenders, it would seem a fair assumption that Mancini should have subbed either of those two and/or Barry?

I am afraid I am not as convinced as you are that Nasri, Silva, Aguero or Dzeko would not pass to the flank, if there was somebody to pass to. Slow build up or not.

Taco, did you read my post earlier in regard to the 3 yellow cards Napoli got?

But that's the point. Getting the ball to our playmakers and front men wasn't a problem. But the tight way Napoli played, combined with below par performances from them, meant they were running into brick walls and/or losing posession. OVerlapping fullbacks would have given them an outlet that they didn't have, and also would have drawn defenders and thus created space for the playmakers to exploit. Lescott, Kompany and Barry are totally irrelevant to this point.

Exactly. Cue the cooing abuse. (I can't fucking help Dave makes points I agree with...)

 

[taconinja]

Sometimes our attacks just ground to a halt and I think if we're going to continue to pursue this style and formation, we need to work out how to accomplish that initial pass to get things started against a team so dedicated to having 11 men sitting fairly deep. We'll need our version of Puyol or Pique to initiate that sequence.

But that's the point. Getting the ball to our playmakers and front men wasn't a problem. But the tight way Napoli played, combined with below par performances from them, meant they were running into brick walls and/or losing posession. OVerlapping fullbacks would have given them an outlet that they didn't have, and also would have drawn defenders and thus created space for the playmakers to exploit. Lescott, Kompany and Barry are totally irrelevant to this point.

I don't think that Napoli could have marked space the way they did if our CBs made those passes. It would have pulled them out of position more. If it was as simple as "Fullbacks run more and run faster" then counter-attack football would not be nearly as effective a tool. Seriously, I think the manager made a poor decision in both his starting fullback(s) and in not anticipating better what was going to happen.

And of course, all this would be moot if two of our shots had been slightly better on target and/or if we had taken the lead before Napoli scored.<br /><br />-- Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:10 am --<br /><br />

Which boils down to Kompany's, Lescott's and Barry's passing?

At times, yes. When the opposition sits deep, you will sometimes need your less advanced midfielders and your central defenders to chip a ball or reverse the field or hit an advanced midfielder on the run, i.e. pass into space, in order to disrupt defensive positioning. I really, really, REALLY hate using this example, but it's something that both Tottenham and the rags are good at doing. We needed both more runs from our fullbacks and better ball placement. I am in agreement that having fullbacks behind their defense would have been disruptive. I'm simply not convinced we would have gotten the ball to them as quickly or effectively as needed.

You are going to hate me for this, I bloody hate myself for this ;), but this brings us all the way back to:

It's 2nd half. Time for Mancini to make a sub. His first sub should have been Kolo for Lescott or Kompany?

Since your reasoning is that our attacking play was poor due to the passing of the above mentioned defenders, it would seem a fair assumption that Mancini should have subbed either of those two and/or Barry?

I am afraid I am not as convinced as you are that Nasri, Silva, Aguero or Dzeko would not pass to the flank, if there was somebody to pass to. Slow build up or not.

Taco, did you read my post earlier in regard to the 3 yellow cards Napoli got?

But that's the point. Getting the ball to our playmakers and front men wasn't a problem. But the tight way Napoli played, combined with below par performances from them, meant they were running into brick walls and/or losing posession. OVerlapping fullbacks would have given them an outlet that they didn't have, and also would have drawn defenders and thus created space for the playmakers to exploit. Lescott, Kompany and Barry are totally irrelevant to this point.

Exactly. Cue the cooing abuse. (I can't fucking help Dave makes points I agree with...)

Hopefully, I don't abuse anyone for agreeing with each other. Mostly I try for dry humor, but the vagaries of the internet defy that at times.

I did read your post regarding yellow cards. Tactically, that was a beautiful move on Napoli's part. The moment they were beaten they took the man down.

His first sub should have been AJ around 60-65 minutes, but that's simply my opinion. (Clichy should have started although it did turn out our advantage was set pieces.)

I've never indicated that Nasri, Silva, et al. would not have passed to fullbacks. My assertion is that it would have been much harder to close down on them if our deep-lying players had (or could or whatever conditional verbiage you wish to use) made more incisive passing. The key to Napoli's demise had to be a combination of set pieces as they were willing to hack down when beaten and pulling them out of position.

 

[Comrade Buka]

Hopefully, I don't abuse anyone for agreeing with each other. Mostly I try for dry humor, but the vagaries of the internet defy that at times.

I did read your post regarding yellow cards. Tactically, that was a beautiful move on Napoli's part. The moment they were beaten they took the man down.

His first sub should have been AJ around 60-65 minutes, but that's simply my opinion. (Clichy should have started although it did turn out our advantage was set pieces.)

I've never indicated that Nasri, Silva, et al. would not have passed to fullbacks. My assertion is that it would have been much harder to close down on them if our deep-lying players had (or could or whatever conditional verbiage you wish to use) made more incisive passing. The key to Napoli's demise had to be a combination of set pieces as they were willing to hack down when beaten and pulling them out of position.

Since I am at work, and haven't done much good today, I will respond to this later. ;)

 

[Tevez City]

Why don`t Mancini use Kolarov as a Centre back sometimes ! in the Carling Cup at least .

I am sure he can do a good job. He is faster than Lescott, and his more comfortable with the ball than Lescott also.

The only advantage for Lescott is that he can clear the long balls better than Kolarov IMO.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Why don`t Mancini use Kolarov as a Centre back sometimes ! in the Carling Cup at least .

I am sure he can do a good job. He is faster than Lescott, and his more comfortable with the ball than Lescott also.

The only advantage for Lescott is that he can clear the long balls better than Kolarov IMO.

If this is a serious post then I think for the first time in blue moon history I'm actually lost for words

 

[taconinja]

Hopefully, I don't abuse anyone for agreeing with each other. Mostly I try for dry humor, but the vagaries of the internet defy that at times.

I did read your post regarding yellow cards. Tactically, that was a beautiful move on Napoli's part. The moment they were beaten they took the man down.

His first sub should have been AJ around 60-65 minutes, but that's simply my opinion. (Clichy should have started although it did turn out our advantage was set pieces.)

I've never indicated that Nasri, Silva, et al. would not have passed to fullbacks. My assertion is that it would have been much harder to close down on them if our deep-lying players had (or could or whatever conditional verbiage you wish to use) made more incisive passing. The key to Napoli's demise had to be a combination of set pieces as they were willing to hack down when beaten and pulling them out of position.

Since I am at work, and haven't done much good today, I will respond to this later. ;)

Of course. :)<br /><br />-- Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:42 am --<br /><br />

Why don`t Mancini use Kolarov as a Centre back sometimes ! in the Carling Cup at least .

I am sure he can do a good job. He is faster than Lescott, and his more comfortable with the ball than Lescott also.

The only advantage for Lescott is that he can clear the long balls better than Kolarov IMO.

If this is a serious post then I think for the first time in blue moon history I'm actually lost for words

I'm struggling on that one as well to be honest.