Labour / Tory Party meltdown Referendum fallout

[mackenzie]

the gang of 4 left mainly over the nuclear dissarmament policy and commitment to leave the EEC, of course foot was complicit, but instead of trying to argue the point they stormed off in a huff. That has always been Labours problem is they always start stropping when they disagree over something, and will never change, the right side in control pisses off the left and vice versa, the centerists are too few that they need one side or the other if they want to win, and after a while they all fall out again

Labour are certainly more public with their disagreements; perhaps that can even be interpreted as more honest. The Tories meanwhile usually close ranks and do it in private.
Bit like the noisy neighbours who get drunk and end up scrapping outside compared to the ones who have pristine net curtains, keep themselves to themselves and yet 10 years later a body is found buried under their patio ;-)

 

[whp.blue]

Still to see any reasonable argument as to why Corbyn is "unelectable" unless by "unelectable" you mean that he is a man of principle that cannot be bought.

Except the one where the new labour party members are mainly from the looney left that were banned years ago. They are driven to take the Labour party down a path that normal very soft left labour voters will not follow,.
The vast majority of Labour Voters want a new blair not a new Ken Livingstone just that the labour party just cant see it the same ones who thoght Ed Milliband was a winning leader.

 

[blueparrot]

Membership multiplied, made large I roads in the polls despite bickering and backstabbing from the PLP, won every mayoral election, increased the Labour share of the vote in by-elections, and the Scottish that I speak to say the problems with Scottish Labour is that it is still lead by the blairites, not the leader of the national party.

Scottish Labour isnt led by a Blarite in any way. Increasing membership by charging £3 isnt a measure of popularity, or electebility, voters, especially floating voters win elections, until that is understood and the manifesto written with that in mind., all the best intensions in the world are irrelevant.
Whatever The members think of Blair and Brown as people, they need to realise that they implemented more socialist policies than the likes of Corbyn ever will. Because they understood that to make any difference the first job was to get elected and if that meant compromise then so be it.
The members only seem to want to indulge their left wing ideals even if it means the Tories winning another election.
There seems to be a line of thinking that the self appointed membership is more important than the PLP that have to stand and be elected by the public every 5 years based on a manifesto. Which is democracy going backwards in my eyes.

 

[Hamann Pineapple]

Scottish Labour isnt led by a Blarite in any way. Increasing membership by charging £3 isnt a measure of popularity, or electebility, voters, especially floating voters win elections, until that is understood and the manifesto written with that in mind., all the best intensions in the world are irrelevant.
Whatever The members think of Blair and Brown as people, they need to realise that they implemented more socialist policies than the likes of Corbyn ever will. Because they understood that to make any difference the first job was to get elected and if that meant compromise then so be it.
The members only seem to want to indulge their left wing ideals even if it means the Tories winning another election.
There seems to be a line of thinking that the self appointed membership is more important than the PLP that have to stand and be elected by the public every 5 years based on a manifesto. Which is democracy going backwards in my eyes.

Well that is certainly the best argument I've heard so far. I hate the one Tories spout that we 'need a strong opposition' , it sounds like they are incapable of reasonable government unless their policies are challenged.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Scottish Labour isnt led by a Blarite in any way. Increasing membership by charging £3 isnt a measure of popularity, or electebility, voters, especially floating voters win elections, until that is understood and the manifesto written with that in mind., all the best intensions in the world are irrelevant.
Whatever The members think of Blair and Brown as people, they need to realise that they implemented more socialist policies than the likes of Corbyn ever will. Because they understood that to make any difference the first job was to get elected and if that meant compromise then so be it.
The members only seem to want to indulge their left wing ideals even if it means the Tories winning another election.
There seems to be a line of thinking that the self appointed membership is more important than the PLP that have to stand and be elected by the public every 5 years based on a manifesto. Which is democracy going backwards in my eyes.

If the centre of politics moves unchallenged inexorably to the right as it has done in this country these last 30 odd years and Labour colludes in that, as it has done since "New Labour" was concocted, you end up with two electoral choices Tory and Tory-lite, which is no choice at all.

 

[law74]

Except the one where the new labour party members are mainly from the looney left that were banned years ago. They are driven to take the Labour party down a path that normal very soft left labour voters will not follow,.
The vast majority of Labour Voters want a new blair not a new Ken Livingstone just that the labour party just cant see it the same ones who thoght Ed Milliband was a winning leader.

So the SWP & Militant had 400,000 members that all joined or rejoined Labour once Corbyn returned it to a left of centre party?
Doubt that somehow, the rise in membership is unheralded in British politics & this is what frightens the life out of the "establishment" & their media propaganda machine

 

[blueparrot]

If the centre of politics moves unchallenged inexorably to the right as it has done in this country these last 30 odd years and Labour colludes in that, as it has done since "New Labour" was concocted, you end up with two electoral choices Tory and Tory-lite, which is no choice at all.

If its the only choice the electorate will make, and the only choice they will vote for, then you can challenge it if you like, but only the ballot box will give you an answer. That answer for the last 40 years has been either the Tories or new Labour.

 

[blueparrot]

So the SWP & Militant had 400,000 members that all joined or rejoined Labour once Corbyn returned it to a left of centre party?
Doubt that somehow, the rise in membership is unheralded in British politics & this is what frightens the life out of the "establishment" & their media propaganda machine

But most voters dont join political parties, and its the voters that matter, and voters that Labour need to appeal to not members.

 

[mat]

Labour are certainly more public with their disagreements; perhaps that can even be interpreted as more honest. The Tories meanwhile usually close ranks and do it in private.
Bit like the noisy neighbours who get drunk and end up scrapping outside compared to the ones who have pristine net curtains, keep themselves to themselves and yet 10 years later a body is found buried under their patio ;-)

What a brilliant way of putting it.

 

[The perfect fumble]

If its the only choice the electorate will make, and the only choice they will vote for, then you can challenge it if you like, but only the ballot box will give you an answer. That answer for the last 40 years has been either the Tories or new Labour.

Choice is meaningless if there are only two dishes on the menu that are indistinguishable.

Political parties are not like football teams, who, if they're losing, change their tactics. Parties stand for something, they can bend with the wind and try and change the "conversation" but if they stray too far from what they stand for they cease to exist. Labour is going through that now, this really is an existential moment.

You have to understand, the Blairite PLP hate Corbyn not because he can't win a general election but because he might.

 

[mat]

Choice is meaningless if there are only two dishes on the menu that are indistinguishable.

Political parties are not like football teams, who, if they're losing, change their tactics. Parties stand for something, they can bend with the wind and try and change the "conversation" but if they stray too far from what they stand for they cease to exist. Labour is going through that now, this really is an existential moment.

You have to understand, the Blairite PLP hate Corbyn not because he can't win a general election but because he might.

 

[whp.blue]

You have to understand, the Blairite PLP hate Corbyn not because he can't win a general election but because he might.

That is the same wishful thinking that cost Labour the last two elections.
There is no stomach amongst most voters for left wing policies we are centre to centre right by nature

 

[blueparrot]

Choice is meaningless if there are only two dishes on the menu that are indistinguishable.

Political parties are not like football teams, who, if they're losing, change their tactics. Parties stand for something, they can bend with the wind and try and change the "conversation" but if they stray too far from what they stand for they cease to exist. Labour is going through that now, this really is an existential moment.

You have to understand, the Blairite PLP hate Corbyn not because he can't win a general election but because he might.

I dont need to understand, its, about 14 million voters you nedd to convince, and they arent listening to Corbyn.

 

[philiph20]

Despite the influx of new members the membership is only 5.5% of the total number of people who voted Labour in the last election, the Corbyn scientologists make a lot of racket but they are still a tiny minority of Labour voters.

 

[blueparrot]

Despite the influx of new members the membership is only 5.5% of the total number of people who voted Labour in the last election, the Corbyn scientologists make a lot of racket but they are still a tiny minority of Labour voters.

Exactly what I have been banging on about, the unelected tail trying to wag the elected dog. The electorate wont have it.

 

[mat]

Intresting party debates on Newsnight. Being ruined by Tessa Jowell showing her growler. No wonder the director is on evasive action.

 

[Chancy Termites]

Intresting party debates on Newsnight. Being ruined by Tessa Jowell showing her growler. No wonder the director is on evasive action.

I would pay good money not to see that.

 

[The perfect fumble]

I dont need to understand, its, about 14 million voters you nedd to convince, and they arent listening to Corbyn.

Maybe, maybe not, but whatever it is you think they're not listening to, it is a more authentic voice of the Labour party than Burnham, Kendle and Cooper were capable of, or anything you can expect from Angela Eagle. Maybe the party is over, maybe the broad church of the Labour party just got too broad or maybe the members simply lost patience with the Tory-lite Blairites.

Maybe the party will fragment, shrink like the Liberals did after the 1st World War, who's to say? But whatever happens the Blairites are finished, they don't trust their own party to do the right thing, because in reality it isn't their party, they've just been squatting in it these last twenty years.

 

[yerwot?]

Maybe, maybe not, but whatever it is you think they're not listening to, it is a more authentic voice of the Labour party than Burnham, Kendle and Cooper were capable of, or anything you can expect from Angela Eagle. Maybe the party is over, maybe the broad church of the Labour party just got too broad or maybe the members simply lost patience with the Tory-lite Blairites.

Maybe the party will fragment, shrink like the Liberals did after the 1st World War, who's to say? But whatever happens the Blairites are finished, they don't trust their own party to do the right thing, because in reality it isn't their party, they've just been squatting in it these last twenty years.

the blairites should come clean and join the tory party, they share more with them than they do with the traditional labour party

 

[SWP's back]

Still to see any reasonable argument as to why Corbyn is "unelectable" unless by "unelectable" you mean that he is a man of principle that cannot be bought.

No. Unelectable as in only loony lefties will vote for him whilst middle England wouldn't in a month of Sunday's.