Lionel Messi | Joins Inter Miami (pg4111)

[kupest]

If we talking drugs, Messi has been on growth hormone since an early teenager, probs why he hardly ever gets injured?! No evidence of Maradona being on coke in 86?

Zanetti, Ayala, Samuel, Heinz, zabeleta, riquelme, mascherano, veron, Di Maria, saviola, aguerro, Higuan just to name a few. Not sure how many international major tournaments he played in (5 or 6?) and can't remember him dominating any? As I said you would have expected them to beat Chile in the Copa America (which is his highlight!)

Not saying Messi is not unbelievable, one of the greatest, just saying he has underachieved at international level. Just like Gerard, lampard, scholes etc ...they will never be held in the same fondness as the 66 team or even Gazza.

Messi was injured for 2 months last season I think mate. You can't define a Messi or Ronaldo just by silverware on the international level. You should then define Maradona on club level as well then. Mate Zanetti retired from Argentina in 2011, he just overlapped with Messi in his older ages. Riquelme retired in 2008 ! Veron in 2010, Heinz I am sure must be around that. Saviola as well. You have named only 3 players who have played after 2011. Also Zaba isn't in the same bracket as a Zanetti I would say.

Why not compare Messis club achievements to Maradonas if you want to talk about silverware? Exactly why you cant rate someone solely on silverware. They are dependent on teammates. Btw Maradona had a great chance to succeed at Barceonla, but he created a lot of flights and had a lot of issues with the board and opposition.

Ronaldo won't be an inferior player because he probably might not win a WC.

 

[Dobsy]

If we talking drugs, Messi has been on growth hormone since an early teenager, probs why he hardly ever gets injured?! No evidence of Maradona being on coke in 86?

Zanetti, Ayala, Samuel, Heinz, zabeleta, riquelme, mascherano, veron, Di Maria, saviola, aguerro, Higuan just to name a few. Not sure how many international major tournaments he played in (5 or 6?) and can't remember him dominating any? As I said you would have expected them to beat Chile in the Copa America (which is his highlight!)

Not saying Messi is not unbelievable, one of the greatest, just saying he has underachieved at international level. Just like Gerard, lampard, scholes etc ...they will never be held in the same fondness as the 66 team or even Gazza.

I suppose we just disagree on what counts as an achievement. I look at it from this context: if an England team got to a world cup final and a European cup final and just missed out they'd be celebrated for generations. When Argentina did it it's almost like it counts against Messi.

I don't think it's realistic to think he'll ever leave Barcelona but if he did and signed for City I'd probably cry with happiness.

 

[Coley101]

I suppose we just disagree on what counts as an achievement. I look at it from this context: if an England team got to a world cup final and a European cup final and just missed out they'd be celebrated for generations. When Argentina did it it's almost like it counts against Messi.

I don't think it's realistic to think he'll ever leave Barcelona but if he did and signed for City I'd probably cry with happiness.

I take your point about reaching a final and agree if England reached it would be a good achievement. But I wouldn't class England as a top side. I just think Messi is so talented and in a decent team (a lot better than England!) and if I was him I would be disappointed with my international achievements.

Kupest - I'm not comparing Messi, Ronaldo or Maradona (or saying if one better than the other) I'm just stating this in my opinion Messi has underachieved on the international front.

 

[HelloCity]

I take your point about reaching a final and agree if England reached it would be a good achievement. But I wouldn't class England as a top side. I just think Messi is so talented and in a decent team (a lot better than England!) and if I was him I would be disappointed with my international achievements.

Kupest - I'm not comparing Messi, Ronaldo or Maradona (or saying if one better than the other) I'm just stating this in my opinion Messi has underachieved on the international front.

To be fair, he captained his side to 3 consecutive international finals.

Two finals they lost on pens and in the other they lost to a far superior side after Higuain had completely fluffed a one on one which would have meant victory in normal time.

The difference between winning and losing is so small, to the point where Messi 'underachieved' at international level because of a couple of pen misses and a poor finish from someone else.

Look at Ronaldo at Portugal. He was awful at the Euros and his team finished 3rd in their group. Any other year and they'd be out as a huge flop but new rules mean the better 3rd place teams go through, and somehow they end up winning the tournament with Ronaldo declared a hero.

In truth, international football is not even close to being the be all, end all anymore. The Champions League is a far higher standard and is where the best of the best truly compete with each other.

I don't need to see Messi win a World Cup to tell me how good he is.

I judge him by what he can do and does do with a football. The goals of Ronaldo/Pele, the skill and dribbles of Maradona, the vision and passing of Zidane and the elegance of Cruyff. Simply the best, and it isn't even close.

 

[Dobsy]

To be fair, he captained his side to 3 consecutive international finals.

Two finals they lost on pens and in the other they lost to a far superior side after Higuain had completely fluffed a one on one which would have meant victory in normal time.

The difference between winning and losing is so small, to the point where Messi 'underachieved' at international level because of a couple of pen misses and a poor finish from someone else.

Look at Ronaldo at Portugal. He was awful at the Euros and his team finished 3rd in their group. Any other year and they'd be out as a huge flop but new rules mean the better 3rd place teams go through, and somehow they end up winning the tournament with Ronaldo declared a hero.

In truth, international football is not even close to being the be all, end all anymore. The Champions League is a far higher standard and is where the best of the best truly compete with each other.

I don't need to see Messi win a World Cup to tell me how good he is.

I judge him by what he can do and does do with a football. The goals of Ronaldo/Pele, the skill and dribbles of Maradona, the vision and passing of Zidane and the elegance of Cruyff. Simply the best, and it isn't even close.

This is what I've been trying to say but you've done it far more eloquently.

 

[Coley101]

To be fair, he captained his side to 3 consecutive international finals.

Two finals they lost on pens and in the other they lost to a far superior side after Higuain had completely fluffed a one on one which would have meant victory in normal time.

The difference between winning and losing is so small, to the point where Messi 'underachieved' at international level because of a couple of pen misses and a poor finish from someone else.

Look at Ronaldo at Portugal. He was awful at the Euros and his team finished 3rd in their group. Any other year and they'd be out as a huge flop but new rules mean the better 3rd place teams go through, and somehow they end up winning the tournament with Ronaldo declared a hero.

In truth, international football is not even close to being the be all, end all anymore. The Champions League is a far higher standard and is where the best of the best truly compete with each other.

I don't need to see Messi win a World Cup to tell me how good he is.

I judge him by what he can do and does do with a football. The goals of Ronaldo/Pele, the skill and dribbles of Maradona, the vision and passing of Zidane and the elegance of Cruyff. Simply the best, and it isn't even close.

An interesting debate.

The difference is that Argentina were probably favourites in 2 of those 3 international finals (with only Chile and Brazil probably only other any real contenders in copa america) and Portugal were not in the top 4 sides when they won the European Cup. It was the brilliance of Ronaldo (even though I hate the man) that won it them.

I'm not saying international football is the be all end all anymore but I was just talking about his international record/performances which look poor when comparing to the like of Pele/Maradona/Zindane for example.

I agree Messi is one of the all time greats but just not sure you can call him the greatest as he has never done it on the international where other players have it both at club and international level. Also Messi has had the privilege of playing at probably the best club team ever and quality international team.

Maradona winning the 86 World Cup in an ordinary team and Napoli winning Seria A when dominated by Milan teams is in my a harder task than winning the Champs league in that Barca team.

I'm not sure Messi would get in mine all time football 11!

 

[HelloCity]

An interesting debate.

The difference is that Argentina were probably favourites in 2 of those 3 international finals (with only Chile and Brazil probably only other any real contenders in copa america) and Portugal were not in the top 4 sides when they won the European Cup. It was the brilliance of Ronaldo (even though I hate the man) that won it them.

I'm not saying international football is the be all end all anymore but I was just talking about his international record/performances which look poor when comparing to the like of Pele/Maradona/Zindane for example.

I agree Messi is one of the all time greats but just not sure you can call him the greatest as he has never done it on the international where other players have it both at club and international level. Also Messi has had the privilege of playing at probably the best club team ever and quality international team.

Maradona winning the 86 World Cup in an ordinary team and Napoli winning Seria A when dominated by Milan teams is in my a harder task than winning the Champs league in that Barca team.

I'm not sure Messi would get in mine all time football 11!

Interesting fact.

That Napoli team was the most expensive in history.

 

[MCFC1993]

Still think he'll renew but just 3 months until foreign clubs can start approaching him though, if he was one of our players i'd be getting slightly nervous.

 

[RandomJ]

He's been using us to get a better deal for years. Every time it comes to renewing his contract the "links" with City appear. And lo and behold he gets what he wants.

 

[BigOscar]

An interesting debate.

The difference is that Argentina were probably favourites in 2 of those 3 international finals (with only Chile and Brazil probably only other any real contenders in copa america) and Portugal were not in the top 4 sides when they won the European Cup. It was the brilliance of Ronaldo (even though I hate the man) that won it them.

I'm not saying international football is the be all end all anymore but I was just talking about his international record/performances which look poor when comparing to the like of Pele/Maradona/Zindane for example.

I agree Messi is one of the all time greats but just not sure you can call him the greatest as he has never done it on the international where other players have it both at club and international level. Also Messi has had the privilege of playing at probably the best club team ever and quality international team.

Maradona winning the 86 World Cup in an ordinary team and Napoli winning Seria A when dominated by Milan teams is in my a harder task than winning the Champs league in that Barca team.

I'm not sure Messi would get in mine all time football 11!

The brilliance of Ronaldo won Portugal the Euro's? He went off injured after abut half an hour and the bloody donkey that is Eder won it with a bizarrely out of character individual goal. It had fuck all to do with Ronaldo, yet somehow people seem too give him the credit for Portugal winning the Euro's.