Manchester City v Liverpool 1977 and last season?

urmston said:
That last minute own goal v Liverpool at Xmas 76 was a real sickener.

City should have won the league that season, just as they should have done in 72.

City had a great team and many good players in the 70s and only winning the league cup in 76 was definitely an underperformance.

About 20 years ago, they did a series called Match of the Seventies, narrated/presented by Dennis Waterman. Each week, they told the story of a season between 1970/1 and the end of the decade using MotD clips plus BBC news footage and with comments from players who'd played a notable part in events. In the last one, they did a kind of recap and referred to us as the great underachievers of the decade.

When you think of the the nearly 30 years that followed, when we couldn't get to a semi-final, spend several seasons in the second tier (even dropping to the third), finished in the top 5 only twice, and needed the pretty laughable 'fair play' route to get into Europe, it's crazy to say that about a decade where (if you disregard the 1969/70 season) we won a pot, made another final, reached a European semi-final and a quarter-final, knocked AC Milan out of the UEFA Cup and beat Juve in seasons where they were each the Serie A champion, and twice came within a point of the title.

But you and they are right. With the players and teams we had, we could have done better than that. We should have won more than just that League Cup in 1976.
 
petrusha said:
mad4city said:
An excellent summary, Petrusha.
Live long enough and we'll get revenge on all the bastards, eh?

Thanks. And yes, we will! :)

willy eckerslike said:
kippax neil said:
I started going in April 1976, so this particular season was my first full one ....and was at this game. So great posts on here brought back so many memories.

I think it was goal average back then as well instead of goal difference. Not 100% sure, but seem to remember someone at the time saying that we had a better goal average than Liverpool and therefore would have won the title had we finished on level points.

Interestingly it seems goal difference was introduced around 1975/1976 so maybe it would have been too late for us anyway. I've never known anything other than GD (the first season I recall was 76/77) and thought GA had been dumped way before that.



It looks like 1975/6 was the last year of goal average: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/division-one-old/1975-1976" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.statto.com/football/stats/en ... /1975-1976</a>

Goal difference seems to have applied in 1976/7 but under either system, Liverpool (62 for and 33 against) were narrowly better than us (60 for and 34 against): <a class="postlink" href="http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/division-one-old/1976-1977/table" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.statto.com/football/stats/en ... 1977/table</a>

Had we beaten them 1-0 at Christmas instead of drawing 1-1, they'd have had 61 for and 33 against and we'd have had 60 for and 33 against, so we'd have still been worse off than them in terms of goal difference and also goal average. But we'd have had more points, so it wouldn't have mattered!


Ah right..Thanks for clearing that up :)

I remember it being close for some reason..a 1-0 would have done it then.

We had a good side then and probably only one or two players off making all the difference...fine margins.
 
The game v Everton I have little recollection of yet I was at Coventry for the last game - so it seems we choked
The dippers IIRC then had a meaningless last game at Wolves which they lost - had it meant anything ( had City held on for the win v them xmas) I´m sure they´d have got the point needed although now thinking about the Everton game that extra point would have put us 2 points ahead so the dippers would have needed the victory at Molineaux

All conjecture so needless to say YES !! We´ve laid that ghost once and for all , from my point of view
 
levets said:
petrusha said:
de niro said:
I was in the kippax and remember Gary Owen dropping a clanger that led to a goal, big Joe grabbed him by the scruff of the neck, poor Gary sort of hung there like a rag doll. Funny though. Should have won it and would have done easily with the king.

Everton in the last home game, a rearranged match in the midweek before the final Saturday of the league season. He fluffed a backpass as we led 1-0 with about ten minutes left, IIRC. After drawing that one 1-1, we could still mathematically win the title - but we needed to win at Coventry on the Saturday while Liverpool had to lose at home to West Ham and away to Bristol City, and we needed a goal difference swing in our favour, too. We did win 1-0 at Coventry (through the maligned Conway, if memory serves) - but it wasn't enough, because Liverpool's 0-0 draw with West Ham meant that they were a point ahead of us after we'd completed our fixtures.

I was at Coventry... some nugget had decided to tell everybody that Liverpool had lost 2-0... we all thought we'd won the league until we got outside. Are you sureLiverpool had another game to play after West Ham? I don't remember it like that.

Liverpool won the league by 1 point... and it was the Watson OG that made the difference.

The Coventry match was my first ever away game, travelled with Fingland's coaches from Northenden.
My second was a bit of a contrast, Leeds away the following season in the FA Cup (pitch invasion etc.).
 
I'm not sure beating Liverpool at home 1-0 instead of 1-1 would have made a difference.

Liverpool would have had to play their best against Bristol City (a game they lost 2-1) rather than take things relatively 'easy' for the European cup final.
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/match/index.html?event=3;page=5;season=1976%2F77" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/ma ... =1976%2F77</a>

We blew it against Derby County 4-0 away defeat, the 1-1 at home to Everton and the 1-1 away to Villa.

Definitely payback though.
 
petrusha said:
Blue Streak said:
So this season just gone was perhaps the first time we have been in direct competition with the Scousers for the title since 1977 and this time we did it. I know from stuff I've read on here previously that people think had Colin Bell not been injured we might have won the title back then? I'm interested to know from Blues that recall that season (as I was only two) do we feel a ghost has been rested?

My first game at Maine Road was during the 1975/6 season, so the 1976/7 season is the first full one I remember. Yes, I did feel that in beating Liverpool to the title we'd redressed the balance a little. That said, I took the view that it would have been disappointing to have missed out to them last season because I regarded us as being a clearly better team, whereas in 1977 Liverpool did have a really outstanding side and they won the European Cup that year as well. The fact that we came within a point of them in the end was testament to how well we did. (To be fair, we have to remember that Liverpool had one game left, which they went on to lose, after we'd completed all our fixtures. Given that they had an FA Cup final and a European Cup final to fit in and with the title already in the bag, they played a second-string side at Bristol City. If they'd had to win that game, you suspect they probably would have done).

As people have said, the point Liverpool earned through Dave Watson's late own goal to give them an undeserved 1-1 draw over Christmas at our place proved vital in the final analysis. However, there was plenty of time for us to put that right subsequently. As someone mentioned, arguably even more vital was when we went to Anfield over Easter, conceded first and were taking a bit of a pasting, indebted to Corrigan for some great saves to keep us in the game. But then we clawed our way back, equalised with around 15 minutes left and looked set for a point taht would have been a great result in the scheme of things. Then we conceded within about 30 seconds of the kick off, which was a real blow.

One thing Tony Book mentions in his autobiography, which I'd long forgotten until I read it, is the effect on Brian Kidd of criticism from Jimmy Hill on MotD. We beat Arsenal at MR in the February, which I think was our 17th straight league game unbeaten, and Kidd was in great scoring form in his first season with the club. The cameras were present and, that night, Hill lambasted the striker for being a dirty player, highlighting various incidents from the game. It was terribly unfair: Kidd was hardly an angel, but First Division football back then was a physical game and there were many worse offenders.

According to Book, Kidd was badly affected and went into his shell on the pitch, feeling unable to play his natural game under the increased scrutiny of referees. And the team's top scorer thus cowed, results suffered. The next seven league games brought only two wins and we also exited the FA Cup at Leeds. It's no accident that, if you look at the goals from this period on the excellent mcfcvideos youtube channel, you'll often hear 'Jimmy Hillis a wanker, is a wanker!' resounding loud and clear from the Kippax.

As for whether Bell would have made the difference - it's certainly a tempting hypothesis for any Blue who knows what a great player he was. Apart from a weakness at right-back (Kenny Clements, with all due respect, wasn't quite of the level of most of his team mates), we had an excellent first eleven, but the balance possibly wasn't quite right in midfield. In the first half of the season, we tended to play a three in there selected from Hartford, Jimmy Conway, Owen and Power, but the latter two were in their first full season. We were solid at the back, with Doyle and Watson an imperious partnership in front of Corrigan, but we could be a bit toothless despite having a fine front three of Royle, Kidd and Tueart; we had five goalless draws before Christmas. In the New Year, Peter Barnes, another kid, usually started in place of Power. Playing an out-and-out winger made us more of a threat in tight games, and we only had one more scoreless draw all season, but we conceded more too.

Bell was a complete midfielder: excellent in the defenseive aspects of the role, but also with the capacity to hit double figures in terms of goals. I suppose you could say that you can never be sure whether it would have been better with him in the side, because it may have affected the way we set up and other players may have been less effective, meaning that the team as a whole wouldn't have improved. However, having watched that team and knowing where I feel the weakness was, I'd be reasonably confident that a fit Colin Bell would have made the difference between first and second place.

Another point to note from Book's autobiography is that he wanted to buy Alan Ball, who was leaving Arsenal, to replace Bell. However, Peter Swales wouldn't meet the asking price for a player who was past 30 and Ball went off to Southampton. We bought Irish international Conway instead, who I think was a similar age but much cheaper. He arrived from Fulham, having worked there with Book's new coach Bill Taylor, who recommended him. Unfortunately it wasn't a successful move, with Conway failing to hold down a regular place and leaving at the end of the season. Ball was still a high class player at the time and could really have added something to the team in my view, so it was a pity we didn't sign him.

Anyway, if we focus on the team we had rather than the one we could have had, maybe we were just a little bit short of what it would have taken to overcome a great side like Liverpool - and make no mistake about it, they were. We gave it a fantastic shot and I think we'd have pulled it off with Colin available, but there you go. It may have taken 37 years, but we got our own back in the end!


This and so many other posts in this thread are a wonderfully fascinating read. It's the era just before I first went to watch City - my late Dad took me to Maine Road in Nov 1980. It also further highlights what a tragic decline that was to follow. So wonderful then to win it this season, and it must have an extra special meaning for you Blue swho were around City in '77.
 
I remember going to that match at Derby, everything looked so promising at the start, but by the end I felt like my insides had been ripped out, our away form was so up and down all that season, losing at Ipswich 1-0 was gut wrenching as well because we seemed to have a well taken equaliser disallowed, because one of our own players seemed to be interfering with play [ he wasn't ], also Bristol City, Liverpool, Utd, and West Ham we lost, we also drew at home 5 times as well as drawing away 9 times that cost us dearly.....................
 
WyongBlue said:
I remember going to that match at Derby, everything looked so promising at the start, but by the end I felt like my insides had been ripped out, our away form was so up and down all that season, losing at Ipswich 1-0 was gut wrenching as well because we seemed to have a well taken equaliser disallowed, because one of our own players seemed to be interfering with play [ he wasn't ], also Bristol City, Liverpool, Utd, and West Ham we lost, we also drew at home 5 times as well as drawing away 9 times that cost us dearly.....................

I don't remember too many teams running away with the title in those days (possibly Leeds a few seasons before).
In 76/77, Liverpool had 57 points with 23 wins, we had 56 points with 21 wins so with three points for a win that is 80 and 77, but from a 42 game season.
In comparison with the last three seasons when the league has been won with 89, 89, and 86 points from four less games.

Without the big TV money which came 15 years or so later (mainly to the chosen few), it was certainly a more competitive league.
 
de niro said:
Goal average was crazy. You had teams winning the title or others relegated by 100th of a goal.

As City found out in 1926-27. Despite beating Bradford City 8-0 in the last game they missed promotion because Portsmouth beat Preston 5-1 and ended up with a goal average advantage of 0.006 or approximately 1/200th of a goal. Apparently it was a while before jubilant City fans found out City hadn't been promoted.
 

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