All civil now mate.St Helens Blue (Exiled) said:Still going at each others throats I see.....
Wonder how many pages this thread will get too.
Until Sunday amigo.The cookie monster said:All civil now mate.St Helens Blue (Exiled) said:Still going at each others throats I see.....
Wonder how many pages this thread will get too.
Gaylord du Bois said:Until Sunday amigo.The cookie monster said:All civil now mate.St Helens Blue (Exiled) said:Still going at each others throats I see.....
Wonder how many pages this thread will get too.
We have struggled with lots of teams (Dortmund , Liverpool, Ajax, Southampton have all done it twice) who have pressed us high up the park and attacked us. And back in the 'golden era' of the first half of last season, loads of teams defended deep against us. We used to play at such a tempo we'd put five past them.waspish said:Danamy said:http://www.mcfc.co.uk/citytv/match-highlights/2011/august/spurs-v-city-extended-highlights?play=1
Why can't we create a performance like above anymore?
Motivation?
Sussed Out?
Everyone's got better?
We've got worse?
What's the answer?
I want my City back :-(
What do you do when a team is happy to play two rows of 5 and are happy to stay like that even when they are 1 and 2 goals down?
Even Barcelona struggle when teams do that and it only usually happen in champs league games, teams in the Spanish league try to have a go..
Didsbury Dave said:We have struggled with lots of teams (Dortmund , Liverpool, Ajax, Southampton have all done it twice) who have pressed us high up the park and attacked us. And back in the 'golden era' of the first half of last season, loads of teams defended deep against us. We used to play at such a tempo we'd put five past them.waspish said:Danamy said:http://www.mcfc.co.uk/citytv/match-highlights/2011/august/spurs-v-city-extended-highlights?play=1
Why can't we create a performance like above anymore?
Motivation?
Sussed Out?
Everyone's got better?
We've got worse?
What's the answer?
I want my City back :-(
What do you do when a team is happy to play two rows of 5 and are happy to stay like that even when they are 1 and 2 goals down?
Even Barcelona struggle when teams do that and it only usually happen in champs league games, teams in the Spanish league try to have a go..
Man utd have faced defensive teams for years and have worked out ways of going round them.
BillyShears said:ifiwasarichfan said:I will vouch for this. I dont want to see Mancini go and if he did my number one choice would be Mourinho.
I have always been a massive fan of his but I do have a couple of problems with him at the moment and neither have been discussed at length here. Its pretty much common knowledge now that he is leaving Madrid. Why then has he not dealt with the poison in the Madrid dressing room that is Casillas and Ramos and possibly Alonso as well in a more firm manner. Surely with nothing to lose being so far behind Barca he could have laid down his marker and bombed them to the stiffs.
My second concern is that I wouldn't put it past United to see Jose at City and then after a Season move Ferguson upstairs and then entice him across Manchester to disrupt our development. People might say this is far fetched but its crossed my mind more than once, especially when the "special one" haters get going and say "with Mourinho it is "all about him".
It would be physically impossible for Mourinho (or in fact any manager) to move from City to United in the current climate. It's a non issue for me.
Mancini needs to stay because I want to see something at my Team that I haven't seen in 46 years of being a supporter. Stability and steady progess. We dont have to conquer the World overnight. This is usually the time when those calling for that get accused of having a "small mentality" but it is just so valid given the way the game is going now with FFP and the position of our rivals. United and Arsenal and Chelsea will all change Managers and leadership very shortly. Let their Clubs face the disruption and the uncertainty not us.
I wouldn't say it's a small time mentality, in fact, I understand completely the point you're making. Now more than ever we need a steady hand, a real leader at the club who understands and can manage the expectations of both the supporters and the owners. Someone who can keep his head when all around them may lose theirs. Someone who will inspire in players the need and want to go the extra mile for them.
Mancini is a Manager who delivers. It shows a complete lack of understanding and knowledge of the wider picture when names suddenly appear on here and gain momentum - the last few days it has been Laudrup,Pelligrini,Biesla,Moyes and Simeone. Just compare the records of those mentioned with our current Manager.
It also shows a complete lack of respect for what he has achieved and Football knowledge when Mancini's detractors speak of him as being so far behind Mourinho,Wenger,Kloop,Pep etc as if he is some sort of lucky Steve Bruce. He may not be the best but he certainly deserves a seat at their Table and his record shows that.
Mancini has won 9 Trophies with 4 different sides in 12 Seasons. He still isn't even 50 !! He buys well, he fights, unlike some on here I believe him to be tactically sound, he improves players with his methods. If his single mindedness and aloofness and stubborness and capacity to lay the blame at the Door of others are seen as faults - well then Mourinho and Ferguson and Wenger share them as well.
With respect I think you're veering into what I consider over emotional territory. No one disputes that Mancini is an excellent coach. Even I don't dispute that. The comparisons between him and the managers you mention is down to their relative achievements. It is an indisputable fact that even with the masses of money which Moratti gave to Mancini, he didn't come close to winning the CL. He also only managed his league successes after Calciopoli when the Italian league was for all intents and purposes a joke.
Now that may seem like I'm being disrespectful but I'm not. What happened there during that period was unprecedented. Mancini no doubt still had to go out and accumulate the points he did, however it's not an exaggeration to say that it is the equivalent of the rags buying RVP, us being relegated, and Spurs, Chelsea, and Arsenal all being docked 10/20 points. The league would be a joke, as the Italian league was.
So yes, Mancini has trophies, and yes he for his age is a very successful coach and one who is very good at his job. But he isn't in the same league as guys like Klopp, Mourinho, Pep, and yes, even Wenger. These guys have all (I guess with the exception of Pep) managed achievements which totally eclipse Mancini's. All in my opinion of course.
Didsbury Dave said:We have struggled with lots of teams (Dortmund , Liverpool, Ajax, Southampton have all done it twice) who have pressed us high up the park and attacked us. And back in the 'golden era' of the first half of last season, loads of teams defended deep against us. We used to play at such a tempo we'd put five past them.waspish said:Danamy said:http://www.mcfc.co.uk/citytv/match-highlights/2011/august/spurs-v-city-extended-highlights?play=1
Why can't we create a performance like above anymore?
Motivation?
Sussed Out?
Everyone's got better?
We've got worse?
What's the answer?
I want my City back :-(
What do you do when a team is happy to play two rows of 5 and are happy to stay like that even when they are 1 and 2 goals down?
Even Barcelona struggle when teams do that and it only usually happen in champs league games, teams in the Spanish league try to have a go..
Man utd have faced defensive teams for years and have worked out ways of going round them.
Shame on you bill ;-)de niro said:Didsbury Dave said:We have struggled with lots of teams (Dortmund , Liverpool, Ajax, Southampton have all done it twice) who have pressed us high up the park and attacked us. And back in the 'golden era' of the first half of last season, loads of teams defended deep against us. We used to play at such a tempo we'd put five past them.waspish said:What do you do when a team is happy to play two rows of 5 and are happy to stay like that even when they are 1 and 2 goals down?
Even Barcelona struggle when teams do that and it only usually happen in champs league games, teams in the Spanish league try to have a go..
Man utd have faced defensive teams for years and have worked out ways of going round them.
can't argue with this.
BillyShears said:The cookie monster said:Yes
Did you read mine?
Real madrid is all about european trophies,if they are not delivered managers are shown the door.
You've dug a hole so deep you'll need to be airlifted out mate ... :)
Regardless of what Madrid's expectations are with regards the European cup, the point being made is that whilst you class Mourinho as a failure at Madrid, the statistics suggest he's their best manager ever ... hahaha.
I might be a long term and passionate advocate for changing managers, but I'm not worried. The long term prognosis for this club is nothing but glory. Whether its Mancini who brings it or another manager, you don't have a squad like this and funds/ambitions like ours and not get to the top of the tree sooner or later. My concern is that Mancini hasn't the right skills to get the best out of these players, and I believe that should we sack him, a new manager won't have to work too hard to get us to fulfill our potential. A couple of signings, a decent manager and we will be pushing for champions league glory in a year or two. Hart, kompany, silva, aguero, toure backed up with Richards, clichy, Barry is the spine of a really good team.ifiwasarichfan said:BillyShears said:ifiwasarichfan said:I will vouch for this. I dont want to see Mancini go and if he did my number one choice would be Mourinho.
I have always been a massive fan of his but I do have a couple of problems with him at the moment and neither have been discussed at length here. Its pretty much common knowledge now that he is leaving Madrid. Why then has he not dealt with the poison in the Madrid dressing room that is Casillas and Ramos and possibly Alonso as well in a more firm manner. Surely with nothing to lose being so far behind Barca he could have laid down his marker and bombed them to the stiffs.
My second concern is that I wouldn't put it past United to see Jose at City and then after a Season move Ferguson upstairs and then entice him across Manchester to disrupt our development. People might say this is far fetched but its crossed my mind more than once, especially when the "special one" haters get going and say "with Mourinho it is "all about him".
It would be physically impossible for Mourinho (or in fact any manager) to move from City to United in the current climate. It's a non issue for me.
Mancini needs to stay because I want to see something at my Team that I haven't seen in 46 years of being a supporter. Stability and steady progess. We dont have to conquer the World overnight. This is usually the time when those calling for that get accused of having a "small mentality" but it is just so valid given the way the game is going now with FFP and the position of our rivals. United and Arsenal and Chelsea will all change Managers and leadership very shortly. Let their Clubs face the disruption and the uncertainty not us.
I wouldn't say it's a small time mentality, in fact, I understand completely the point you're making. Now more than ever we need a steady hand, a real leader at the club who understands and can manage the expectations of both the supporters and the owners. Someone who can keep his head when all around them may lose theirs. Someone who will inspire in players the need and want to go the extra mile for them.
Mancini is a Manager who delivers. It shows a complete lack of understanding and knowledge of the wider picture when names suddenly appear on here and gain momentum - the last few days it has been Laudrup,Pelligrini,Biesla,Moyes and Simeone. Just compare the records of those mentioned with our current Manager.
It also shows a complete lack of respect for what he has achieved and Football knowledge when Mancini's detractors speak of him as being so far behind Mourinho,Wenger,Kloop,Pep etc as if he is some sort of lucky Steve Bruce. He may not be the best but he certainly deserves a seat at their Table and his record shows that.
Mancini has won 9 Trophies with 4 different sides in 12 Seasons. He still isn't even 50 !! He buys well, he fights, unlike some on here I believe him to be tactically sound, he improves players with his methods. If his single mindedness and aloofness and stubborness and capacity to lay the blame at the Door of others are seen as faults - well then Mourinho and Ferguson and Wenger share them as well.
With respect I think you're veering into what I consider over emotional territory. No one disputes that Mancini is an excellent coach. Even I don't dispute that. The comparisons between him and the managers you mention is down to their relative achievements. It is an indisputable fact that even with the masses of money which Moratti gave to Mancini, he didn't come close to winning the CL. He also only managed his league successes after Calciopoli when the Italian league was for all intents and purposes a joke.
Now that may seem like I'm being disrespectful but I'm not. What happened there during that period was unprecedented. Mancini no doubt still had to go out and accumulate the points he did, however it's not an exaggeration to say that it is the equivalent of the rags buying RVP, us being relegated, and Spurs, Chelsea, and Arsenal all being docked 10/20 points. The league would be a joke, as the Italian league was.
So yes, Mancini has trophies, and yes he for his age is a very successful coach and one who is very good at his job. But he isn't in the same league as guys like Klopp, Mourinho, Pep, and yes, even Wenger. These guys have all (I guess with the exception of Pep) managed achievements which totally eclipse Mancini's. All in my opinion of course.
Good arguements made Billy.
On the issue of Mourinho being our Manager and leaving us - I did say it was "far fetched" but as a City fan I am more used to worrying than winning!
I worry a lot that the few posters on here who want a change of Manager may be right and my views are wrong. I worry even more that we might throw away a lot of the gains we have made in such a short space of time by changing the Manager. A new Manager doesn't just change tactics he changes players usually wholesale changes !
The "Meeting with Pelligrini" thread at the moment is discussing how our new Management structure should mean that change "is accomodated easily" so we could take a bit of a punt.
Right now however, for all his documented faults (and I was just about to throw in my views when the Boaeting stuff appeared yesterday which didn't reflect well on Mancini) I believe we have a guy in charge who has won and will win more Trophies. This Mancini side at its best combines the power of Jose's Chelsea and the flair of Wengers "Invincibles". A couple of changes in the Summer to adress obvious faults such as a lack of pace and we can go again.
Much better than starting again.
He knows the problem, he has the answer.Danamy said:http://www.mcfc.co.uk/citytv/match-highlights/2011/august/spurs-v-city-extended-highlights?play=1
Why can't we create a performance like above anymore?
Motivation?
Sussed Out?
Everyone's got better?
We've got worse?
What's the answer?
I want my City back :-(
Didsbury Dave said:We have struggled with lots of teams (Dortmund , Liverpool, Ajax, Southampton have all done it twice) who have pressed us high up the park and attacked us. And back in the 'golden era' of the first half of last season, loads of teams defended deep against us. We used to play at such a tempo we'd put five past them.waspish said:Danamy said:http://www.mcfc.co.uk/citytv/match-highlights/2011/august/spurs-v-city-extended-highlights?play=1
Why can't we create a performance like above anymore?
Motivation?
Sussed Out?
Everyone's got better?
We've got worse?
What's the answer?
I want my City back :-(
What do you do when a team is happy to play two rows of 5 and are happy to stay like that even when they are 1 and 2 goals down?
Even Barcelona struggle when teams do that and it only usually happen in champs league games, teams in the Spanish league try to have a go..
Man utd have faced defensive teams for years and have worked out ways of going round them.
It's our plan B. Dzeko on, with wing backs. Thing is it's one or the other with usExeter Blue I am here said:Didsbury Dave said:We have struggled with lots of teams (Dortmund , Liverpool, Ajax, Southampton have all done it twice) who have pressed us high up the park and attacked us. And back in the 'golden era' of the first half of last season, loads of teams defended deep against us. We used to play at such a tempo we'd put five past them.waspish said:What do you do when a team is happy to play two rows of 5 and are happy to stay like that even when they are 1 and 2 goals down?
Even Barcelona struggle when teams do that and it only usually happen in champs league games, teams in the Spanish league try to have a go..
Man utd have faced defensive teams for years and have worked out ways of going round them.
Accurate whipped crossing being chief among them. I watched the rags game in Madrid follow a predictably tiresome pattern, and not for the first time marvelled at the ignorance of the pundits on duty as to how the rags play. The myth of the rags as a great footballing side has become so entrenched in the minds of some of these people that they can't see the wood for the trees. The commentator seemed genuinely amazed that the rags had scored more headed goals (19) than any other team in all 4 divisions this season. Lord knows why? They routinely take the field with half a dozen players standing 6ft 2' or taller (at one stage against Madrid, they had 8 such players on the field), and both the wingers and full backs specialise in vicious, flat, whipped crosses across the edge of the 6 yard box that take away all of a defender's natural advantages and require only a touch to divert them home. Even a circus dwarf like Evra has managed to get his noggin on the end of 5 of them this season! And Van Persie's corners are so evil they are tantamount to shots. It's real percentage stuff that owes little to spontaneity and much to endless drilling on the training ground.
City choose to play a different game, which is fine, but to not have this simple tactic even as an option baffles me. Barcelona don't have it in their portfolio either and I've watched them get frustrated by Chelsea and Celtic (twice each) and indeed by Milan tonight, as a consequence
Exeter Blue I am here said:Accurate whipped crossing being chief among them. I watched the rags game in Madrid follow a predictably tiresome pattern, and not for the first time marvelled at the ignorance of the pundits on duty as to how the rags play. The myth of the rags as a great footballing side has become so entrenched in the minds of some of these people that they can't see the wood for the trees. The commentator seemed genuinely amazed that the rags had scored more headed goals (19) than any other team in all 4 divisions this season. Lord knows why? They routinely take the field with half a dozen players standing 6ft 2' or taller (at one stage against Madrid, they had 8 such players on the field), and both the wingers and full backs specialise in vicious, flat, whipped crosses across the edge of the 6 yard box that take away all of a defender's natural advantages and require only a touch to divert them home. Even a circus dwarf like Evra has managed to get his noggin on the end of 5 of them this season! And Van Persie's corners are so evil they are tantamount to shots. It's real percentage stuff that owes little to spontaneity and much to endless drilling on the training ground.
City choose to play a different game, which is fine, but to not have this simple tactic even as an option baffles me. Barcelona don't have it in their portfolio either and I've watched them get frustrated by Chelsea and Celtic (twice each) and indeed by Milan tonight, as a consequence
Marvin said:It's our plan B. Dzeko on, with wing backs. Thing is it's one or the other with us
A system that has worked all of once.Marvin said:It's our plan B. Dzeko on, with wing backs. Thing is it's one or the other with usExeter Blue I am here said:Didsbury Dave said:We have struggled with lots of teams (Dortmund , Liverpool, Ajax, Southampton have all done it twice) who have pressed us high up the park and attacked us. And back in the 'golden era' of the first half of last season, loads of teams defended deep against us. We used to play at such a tempo we'd put five past them.
Man utd have faced defensive teams for years and have worked out ways of going round them.
Accurate whipped crossing being chief among them. I watched the rags game in Madrid follow a predictably tiresome pattern, and not for the first time marvelled at the ignorance of the pundits on duty as to how the rags play. The myth of the rags as a great footballing side has become so entrenched in the minds of some of these people that they can't see the wood for the trees. The commentator seemed genuinely amazed that the rags had scored more headed goals (19) than any other team in all 4 divisions this season. Lord knows why? They routinely take the field with half a dozen players standing 6ft 2' or taller (at one stage against Madrid, they had 8 such players on the field), and both the wingers and full backs specialise in vicious, flat, whipped crosses across the edge of the 6 yard box that take away all of a defender's natural advantages and require only a touch to divert them home. Even a circus dwarf like Evra has managed to get his noggin on the end of 5 of them this season! And Van Persie's corners are so evil they are tantamount to shots. It's real percentage stuff that owes little to spontaneity and much to endless drilling on the training ground.
City choose to play a different game, which is fine, but to not have this simple tactic even as an option baffles me. Barcelona don't have it in their portfolio either and I've watched them get frustrated by Chelsea and Celtic (twice each) and indeed by Milan tonight, as a consequence
It's a point I've made many times mate and one I think you and i have discussed before. The way to beat a defensive team is to stretch them and get behind them and deliver balls into the box. A flat cross coming at a defender from behind him is muchharder to defend that one coming from in front of him. Richards can do it but we've missed him all season. Milner can do it quite well. Maicon can actually do it ok too. Kolorov can. But all of our players who can go outside defenders and deliver these flat crosses are not first choice players, and are naturally defensive players. Apart from Micah who we have missed dreadfully. Our attack minded players do not do this. Silva and nasri come inside players and play through the middle. So do aguero and Tevez.Exeter Blue I am here said:Didsbury Dave said:We have struggled with lots of teams (Dortmund , Liverpool, Ajax, Southampton have all done it twice) who have pressed us high up the park and attacked us. And back in the 'golden era' of the first half of last season, loads of teams defended deep against us. We used to play at such a tempo we'd put five past them.waspish said:What do you do when a team is happy to play two rows of 5 and are happy to stay like that even when they are 1 and 2 goals down?
Even Barcelona struggle when teams do that and it only usually happen in champs league games, teams in the Spanish league try to have a go..
Man utd have faced defensive teams for years and have worked out ways of going round them.
Accurate whipped crossing being chief among them. I watched the rags game in Madrid follow a predictably tiresome pattern, and not for the first time marvelled at the ignorance of the pundits on duty as to how the rags play. The myth of the rags as a great footballing side has become so entrenched in the minds of some of these people that they can't see the wood for the trees. The commentator seemed genuinely amazed that the rags had scored more headed goals (19) than any other team in all 4 divisions this season. Lord knows why? They routinely take the field with half a dozen players standing 6ft 2' or taller (at one stage against Madrid, they had 8 such players on the field), and both the wingers and full backs specialise in vicious, flat, whipped crosses across the edge of the 6 yard box that take away all of a defender's natural advantages and require only a touch to divert them home. Even a circus dwarf like Evra has managed to get his noggin on the end of 5 of them this season! And Van Persie's corners are so evil they are tantamount to shots. It's real percentage stuff that owes little to spontaneity and much to endless drilling on the training ground.
City choose to play a different game, which is fine, but to not have this simple tactic even as an option baffles me. Barcelona don't have it in their portfolio either and I've watched them get frustrated by Chelsea and Celtic (twice each) and indeed by Milan tonight, as a consequence
You mean like Guardiola and the greatest football team we have ever seenBluemoon115 said:A system that has worked all of once.Marvin said:It's our plan B. Dzeko on, with wing backs. Thing is it's one or the other with usExeter Blue I am here said:Accurate whipped crossing being chief among them. I watched the rags game in Madrid follow a predictably tiresome pattern, and not for the first time marvelled at the ignorance of the pundits on duty as to how the rags play. The myth of the rags as a great footballing side has become so entrenched in the minds of some of these people that they can't see the wood for the trees. The commentator seemed genuinely amazed that the rags had scored more headed goals (19) than any other team in all 4 divisions this season. Lord knows why? They routinely take the field with half a dozen players standing 6ft 2' or taller (at one stage against Madrid, they had 8 such players on the field), and both the wingers and full backs specialise in vicious, flat, whipped crosses across the edge of the 6 yard box that take away all of a defender's natural advantages and require only a touch to divert them home. Even a circus dwarf like Evra has managed to get his noggin on the end of 5 of them this season! And Van Persie's corners are so evil they are tantamount to shots. It's real percentage stuff that owes little to spontaneity and much to endless drilling on the training ground.
City choose to play a different game, which is fine, but to not have this simple tactic even as an option baffles me. Barcelona don't have it in their portfolio either and I've watched them get frustrated by Chelsea and Celtic (twice each) and indeed by Milan tonight, as a consequence
"One or the other" doesn't sound like a situation a top manager would be in.