Mancini's biggest fault. (IMO)

[Dax777]

How many of those passes misplaced by Kolarov or Milner were during what I would consider Key Breaks from defence? I bet you don't have the stats on that (Because stats are pointless and meaningless).

Actually I do. I can tell you when the mispasses of each player killed an opportunity,
Kolarov killed 6 attacks with poor passes, 3 crosses from the wing that failed to reach destination after outlet passes on 2 occasions and Kolarov running down the wing on the third. 1 was blocked by Essien, the second by Ivanovic and another went astray.
One from near the Center line after receiving a short pass from De Jong he tried to slip it thru to Dzeko. Pass was intercepted by Luiz.
The fifth Offense kiling play was a cross from the left side just outside the 18, that he lobbed directly to Cech and over Dzeko and Yaya..

As for Milner. In the first 15 minutes of the game (2 lost passes)
1. After quick passes forward ( a thru pass from Yaya), Milner lost the ball trying to beat Terry (tried to push it around him but Terry read it) That led to a dangerous counter by Chlesea.
2nd, After a Yaya to Richard, Richards to Milner pass, Milner gets stopped by Cole (another counter attack against us.
3. Milner Drives to the sideline cuts back onto left foot and crosses poorly to Cech,
4. Kolarov to Silva to Milner, Milner's pass to Dzeko is poor and cut off.

Now I can go ahead and describe perhaps 90% of every instance of lost possession. But just from the 10 actual scenarios described above, you can already see how it is impossible for Yaya to be at fault for 50% of the Key plays. Just isn't true.
So like I said earlier, no way in hell are you right about your assertions. Your memory is just highlighting your bias.

How many times did Yaya make a pass which he completed (therefore a good stat) but there was a better pass on which he failed to spot? Where are your stats for that? (Nowhere because stats are meaningless)

There are 2 plays in which Yaya lost the ball that could be viewed in any shape as an offense killing loss.. 1 was a chip pass attempt for Dzeko that Luiz cut off, and the other was a poor cross field pass attempt to Milner that was picked off by Cole by Cole.

Furthermore, instances when Yaya completed a pass but could have found a better one, were so much fewer than similar situations with Silva, Milner, and Kolarov. And I could recite them for you. But I will wait for you to ask, so I don't write too much. But be rest assured that stat can be deduced easily.

Did I say that Yaya wasn't a premiership quality player full stop? No just not good enough in the role he's been given. In my opinion. (I'm sorry I don't have any pointless stats to back that up).

Well I already said you are free to hold your opinion. :)

I don't give accurate stats because they are mis-leading I just give my opinion in regards to what I've watched. It is a truer representation of what I'm seeing than any stat could ever be.

You couldn't be further from the truth. What your mind does, is give a representation based on your pre-existing tendencies. What I provide is a mixture of watching the game, the highlights (multiple times), Chalkboard stats (and they are comprehensive), and Gamecast stats and Play by play recaps. By the time you go thru those a few times, what you have are actual play by play images of every significant event. That is why I can rattleoff actual situational events off head. Coz I have reinforced my initial viewing with 4 different view points. Your biased opinion after watching once can't match that for truth, veracity or completeness

In my opinion 50% of the key counter attacks where Chelsea were left light at the back broke down due to a poor pass or poor vision by Yaya. (is that better for you?) Have you got any stats to refute that? No because it's an opinion based on what I witnessed with my own eyes. Better by far than any stat.

Again I can refute it with utmost ease. Give me an hour and I will be back with every scenario described in detail.All I need from you is to describe what you consider as "Chelsea being light in the back" that way I know exactly what Scenario's apply. i.e. does it include when they have less than 4 in the back? when we have more numbers than they do on offense? After a wave of attack from them that we turned around.? You list all the possibilities you believe constitute that vague idea of yours, and I will produce not only the stats but I will describe each scenario in graphic detail and who made or did not make the pass that killed the play.

Truth be told, even common sense will suggest, it is unlikely that a guy who failed to complete 7 passes all night was responsible for 50% of offensive plays getting killed. Especially when there are about 55 other misplaced passes in offensive areas. Not to mention 9 other 1 v 1 take ons by City players that failed, of which he was responsible for none. Really this is not an argument you can win by trying to undermine the stats. This isn't your pop and mom simple stat. This is the kind of stat that shows everything, Even shows you videos of events.

So go ahead. Test me- Give me the list of what constitute "Chelsea being left Light" and I will put the stats and description in your lap... And that is a promise!<br /><br />-- Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:13 pm --<br /><br />

here is where you are wrong IMO. City's defence isnt solid , City "defensive fase" may be solid (often not enough) just thank to the tactic mancini is forced to utilize. he utilize a defense protective tactic becouse he know his defenders are not good enough to be let at themselves.

Again utter rubbish. We've conceded less goals than Ushited (the league leaders) this year. If we pressed harder and used a proper attacking mid instead of Yaya we wouldn't concede much more (maybe no more, as teams who are attacked with more force feel less able to attack themselves) but we would score many more. IMO of course.

Suddenly, when conducive, the man uses STATS. I thought stats were pointless. I knew It would't take long to catch you spewing some stats when it favors you. Could your stat show us. Lol!!!

 

[Mr Ed (The Stables)]

Right yet he was good enough to be in the Barca team for over 3 years. Jesus Christ bluemoon gets worse every day.

To be fair the Op says Yaya as an attacking midfielder. At Barca he played the holding role, or he was used as a centre half.

 

[Fuzzmaster101]

I just realised I've drifted from my original statement. I'm trying to justify my opinion to yet another person who is mis-quoting me or putting words in my mouth. Here is my original post:

I'm not here to slag off the current manager, or any of the players. I'd just like to air something that's bugging me.

In my opinion Mancini's biggest fault is that he believes Yaya Toure is a premiership quality attacking midfielder. I don't doubt Yaya's qualities and one game out of maybe 6 or 7 he has an excellent game there (usually against poor opposition). But for me he's just not good enough in this roll.

Look at premiership teams who play with either an AM or a number 10 dropping off into midfield to link up play. Tottenham (Modric, Van Der Vaart) Chelsea (Lampard), Arsenal (Fabregas), Liverpool (Gerrard), Ushited (Rooney). I just don't think Yaya is as good as any of these players in this roll. For me our two more defense-minded Mids should be two from Barry, De Jong, Yaya, Vieira, Milner, Zab. Then the AM position should be given to either Silva or Tevez (The Rooney roll if playing alongside Balo or Dzeko) or at a pinch Milner.

Against Chelsea we had a big man up front so Silva would have been ideal as the AM (Or number 10) with Milner and AJ on the wings to play balls into the box. This just never happened. I can barely remember Dzeko having a chance (except the one he stuffed up when Yaya dummied a touch). It seemed that 50% of the breaks we got (and there weren't many) broke down due to a poor ball by Yaya or a lack of vision by him.

Like I said I don't want to slag the player off, I think he has many fine qualities, just not as the lynchpin of our midfield. For me the AM is the most important roll in a 4-3-3 or a 4-5-1.

Thoughts?

In bold is the bit I'm refering to and I was reminded as I took the kids to school of the key part of that sentence. The bit in brackets says "and there weren't many". This is because I considered there to be somewhere between 4 and possibly 7 key breaks in the game, hence why I said "and there weren't many". I wasn't referring to general attacking play where indeed we failed to get meaningful crosses into the box. I'm talking about the moments like in the home game against Chelsea from which Tevez scored. Real chances to break on Chelsea and cause damage. In my opinion at least 2 of these maybe 3 broke down due to Yaya's poor play. This would mean for all you statos somewhere between 28% and 75% of these breaks ended this way, in my opinion. No 50% wasn't an accurate stat, it was an opinion. I'm sure some won't agree but that's why there are differences in opinion.

Dax777 in response to this OP said that the stats for missed passes were Kolarov 15, Dzeko 13, Milner 12, Richards 10, Silva 9, Barry 7, Lesscott 7, Yaya 7, Kompany 4, De Jong 1. So either he's mis-interpreting my statement or he believes we had 85 major breaks which should have ended in chances!!! I think he was watching a different game to me.

Like I said stats can be used to show whatever you want, however don't refute a claim I've made by making a completely different point using mis-leading stats.

 

[Dax777]

I just realised I've drifted from my original statement. I'm trying to justify my opinion to yet another person who is mis-quoting me or putting words in my mouth. Here is my original post:

I'm not here to slag off the current manager, or any of the players. I'd just like to air something that's bugging me.

In my opinion Mancini's biggest fault is that he believes Yaya Toure is a premiership quality attacking midfielder. I don't doubt Yaya's qualities and one game out of maybe 6 or 7 he has an excellent game there (usually against poor opposition). But for me he's just not good enough in this roll.

Look at premiership teams who play with either an AM or a number 10 dropping off into midfield to link up play. Tottenham (Modric, Van Der Vaart) Chelsea (Lampard), Arsenal (Fabregas), Liverpool (Gerrard), Ushited (Rooney). I just don't think Yaya is as good as any of these players in this roll. For me our two more defense-minded Mids should be two from Barry, De Jong, Yaya, Vieira, Milner, Zab. Then the AM position should be given to either Silva or Tevez (The Rooney roll if playing alongside Balo or Dzeko) or at a pinch Milner.

Against Chelsea we had a big man up front so Silva would have been ideal as the AM (Or number 10) with Milner and AJ on the wings to play balls into the box. This just never happened. I can barely remember Dzeko having a chance (except the one he stuffed up when Yaya dummied a touch). It seemed that 50% of the breaks we got (and there weren't many) broke down due to a poor ball by Yaya or a lack of vision by him.

Like I said I don't want to slag the player off, I think he has many fine qualities, just not as the lynchpin of our midfield. For me the AM is the most important roll in a 4-3-3 or a 4-5-1.

Thoughts?

In bold is the bit I'm refering to and I was reminded as I took the kids to school of the key part of that sentence. The bit in brackets says "and there weren't many". This is because I considered there to be somewhere between 4 and possibly 7 key breaks in the game, hence why I said "and there weren't many". I wasn't referring to general attacking play where indeed we failed to get meaningful crosses into the box. I'm talking about the moments like in the home game against Chelsea from which Tevez scored. Real chances to break on Chelsea and cause damage. In my opinion at least 2 of these maybe 3 broke down due to Yaya's poor play. This would mean for all you statos somewhere between 28% and 75% of these breaks ended this way, in my opinion. No 50% wasn't an accurate stat, it was an opinion. I'm sure some won't agree but that's why there are differences in opinion.

Dax777 in response to this OP said that the stats for missed passes were Kolarov 15, Dzeko 13, Milner 12, Richards 10, Silva 9, Barry 7, Lesscott 7, Yaya 7, Kompany 4, De Jong 1. So either he's mis-interpreting my statement or he believes we had 85 major breaks which should have ended in chances!!! I think he was watching a different game to me.

Like I said stats can be used to show whatever you want, however don't refute a claim I've made by making a completely different point using mis-leading stats.

You are a funny character Fuzz. It seems it is more important to you to believe your opinion than it is to re-examine it. But accusing me of something other than what I did isn't cool. Especially when we can all go back and read each persons response.

Your claim above is an argument for why you believe playing Yaya at AM is Mancini's biggest fault. To support that conclusion you proffered a series of supporting claims.
1. Yaya is not as good as similar players in other positions for top clubs
2. Dzeko received almost no service whatsoever, except a Yaya dummy.
3. SIlva, Tevez or Milner would have been ideal as Yaya was at fault for killing possibly 50% of the breaks we got.
Those were your core claims.
Now I responded to those claims altogether.
1. I disagreed that he wasn't as good as players from other teams playing that position. Citing Lampard as an example (but since this is subjective) I left it at that.
2. I said the reason Dzeko didn't get service was because we lost possession a lot in attacking areas (i.e. possession dying before we could create a chance) And the 3 most responsible for this were Dzeko himself, Kolarov, and Milner.
To support this claim I detailed Kolarov and Milners inability to get balls to Dzeko on numerous occasions. And then supported those claims by showing how that failure were supported by the high number of bals lost in advanced areas by the above 3. To refute the claim that Yaya playing as the AM was the biggest mistake made by Mancini, I listed the pass failure rates of each player of each player on the field. Showing Yaya was quite unlikely the problem.

Then I questioned why you and others would conclude based on this that somehow Yaya was the one losing the ball and the reason why Dzeko isn't getting chances, and by extension (your hidden claim here) why we weren't creating any.

What my response did was answer both what you outrightly stated, and what you implied. I.e
The implied here is that Yaya playing AM was the biggest reason why we failed to create chances!

My whole response, is a refutation of that claim. I am not putting words in your mouth, just making a counter aergument and providing extra information in the way of stats that shows that your claims (ii.e. conclusions and inferences there from) were probably untrue.

Considering you have subjectively determined what constitutes "a breakaway from the back," you'd have to tell me what that means in detail for me to be able to refute or agree with it. But just considering how the game flowed, I am almost certain it is unlikely you are right. And based on my general subjective belief of what that "breakaway" claim means, there is only one Yaya pass that probably would fit into that claim. His poor pass to Milner that Cole cut off. even his chip to Dzeko that was intercepted by Luiz would hardly constitute a "breakaway"! as it was at the end of a slow build up.
I am almost certain your conclusions in the OP is a function of bias. Why? because the reasons why we kept dying out at the offensive end were seldom a function of Yaya doing something wrong. When the offensive impetus dies with others so much more often than the accused, bias is often the most likely reason. Your memory just remembers the Yaya miscues more, because you were predisposed to thinking Yaya was poor.
I am telling you offensively that was seldom the case. That is what the stats show, that is what the highlights show, that is what the gamecast play by play show, and that was what transpired during the game.

 

[Fuzzmaster101]

I just realised I've drifted from my original statement. I'm trying to justify my opinion to yet another person who is mis-quoting me or putting words in my mouth. Here is my original post:

In bold is the bit I'm refering to and I was reminded as I took the kids to school of the key part of that sentence. The bit in brackets says "and there weren't many". This is because I considered there to be somewhere between 4 and possibly 7 key breaks in the game, hence why I said "and there weren't many". I wasn't referring to general attacking play where indeed we failed to get meaningful crosses into the box. I'm talking about the moments like in the home game against Chelsea from which Tevez scored. Real chances to break on Chelsea and cause damage. In my opinion at least 2 of these maybe 3 broke down due to Yaya's poor play. This would mean for all you statos somewhere between 28% and 75% of these breaks ended this way, in my opinion. No 50% wasn't an accurate stat, it was an opinion. I'm sure some won't agree but that's why there are differences in opinion.

Dax777 in response to this OP said that the stats for missed passes were Kolarov 15, Dzeko 13, Milner 12, Richards 10, Silva 9, Barry 7, Lesscott 7, Yaya 7, Kompany 4, De Jong 1. So either he's mis-interpreting my statement or he believes we had 85 major breaks which should have ended in chances!!! I think he was watching a different game to me.

Like I said stats can be used to show whatever you want, however don't refute a claim I've made by making a completely different point using mis-leading stats.

You are a funny character Fuzz. It seems it is more important to you to believe your opinion than it is to re-examine it. But accusing me of something other than what I did isn't cool. Especially when we can all go back and read each persons response.

Your claim above is an argument for why you believe playing Yaya at AM is Mancini's biggest fault. To support that conclusion you proffered a series of supporting claims.
1. Yaya is not as good as similar players in other positions for top clubs
2. Dzeko received almost no service whatsoever, except a Yaya dummy.
3. SIlva, Tevez or Milner would have been ideal as Yaya was at fault for killing possibly 50% of the breaks we got.
Those were your core claims.
Now I responded to those claims altogether.
1. I disagreed that he wasn't as good as players from other teams playing that position. Citing Lampard as an example (but since this is subjective) I left it at that.
2. I said the reason Dzeko didn't get service was because we lost possession a lot in attacking areas (i.e. possession dying before we could create a chance) And the 3 most responsible for this were Dzeko himself, Kolarov, and Milner.
To support this claim I detailed Kolarov and Milners inability to get balls to Dzeko on numerous occasions. And then supported those claims by showing how that failure were supported by the high number of bals lost in advanced areas by the above 3. To refute the claim that Yaya playing as the AM was the biggest mistake made by Mancini, I listed the pass failure rates of each player of each player on the field. Showing Yaya was quite unlikely the problem.

Then I questioned why you and others would conclude based on this that somehow Yaya was the one losing the ball and the reason why Dzeko isn't getting chances, and by extension (your hidden claim here) why we weren't creating any.

What my response did was answer both what you outrightly stated, and what you implied. I.e
The implied here is that Yaya playing AM was the biggest reason why we failed to create chances!

My whole response, is a refutation of that claim. I am not putting words in your mouth, just making providing extra information in the way of responses and counter arguments that shows that your claims (ii.e. conclusions and implications) are probably untrue.

Yep point Number 1 is an opinion I stand by, and yes I believe Lampard is significantly better in that position than Yaya (Not a better player, just better in that part of the pitch)

Point 2, The service Dzeko recieved was dreadful, I never claimed this was entirely down to Yaya, he just was a part of it.

Point 3, I absolutley stand behind and is the whole point of this thread. We have players who I believe would play this role better, that's my opinion based on what I see week in week out (Not just against Chelsea). I believe Yaya would be much better suited in Barry's role along side De Jong and as the more likely player of that duo to take the ball forward (Something he does very well).

If I didn't believe in what I was saying I wouldn't have said it. I accept he is not solely to blame and I never claimed that he was. I merely said that I believe that this is Mancini's biggest fault. You may think it's slow build up, and I would say that could well be true also.

If you think Yaya is the best AM we have and is the equal of any other AM or No10 (style player) in the Premiership then say so. If you don't then what is your point? Or, are you just wanting to air your voice with pointless stats which show nothing and waste my time?

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Fuzz, my advice is leave well alone or you'll be wading through treacle all day. I've been there on this exact same point with Dax. No offence, Dax, your loyalty to Ya Ya is commendable.

 

[johnny crossan]

Fuzz, my advice is leave well alone or you'll be wading through treacle all day. I've been there on this exact same point with Dax. No offence, Dax, your loyalty to Ya Ya is commendable.

At various junctures on here this poster has seriously bad-mouthed Hart, Richards, Kolo, Lescott, Kolarov, Bridge, Zabaleta, Yaya, Milner, SWP, Barry, AJ, Dzeko, Tevez, Jo, Adebayor, Bellamy and even Kompany. Occasionally he does a public U-turn as with Carlos.
The only player he has been consistently been a fan of is Superman.
That says it all.

 

[Dax777]

Yep point Number 1 is an opinion I stand by, and yes I believe Lampard is significantly better in that position than Yaya (Not a better player, just better in that part of the pitch)

I disagree that he is. But even if he were, I doubt that makes Yaya unsuitable for that position. I believe, Nani, Nasri, Bale, and Kuyt are all superior players to Milner or AJ on the wing, yet It doesn't mean AJ or Milner are not suited for the wings. It is one of those kind of claims that doesn't mean much of anything. In the top 5 someone has to be the best at a position and someone the worst. This in itself doesn't say anything about anything, unless the worst (i.e. the one you are talking about actually hinders his team.)
Would I take Modric, Fabregas, Rooney and Suarez over Yaya in the hole, ofcourse- But I'll take Nani, Bale, Lennon, Kuyt, and Nasri over AJ too. This doesn't mean much.

Point 2, The service Dzeko recieved was dreadful, I never claimed this was entirely down to Yaya, he just was a part of it.

No you did not claim he was 'entirely' responsible. But you implied he was a major factor responsible for it. I am saying he wasn't.

Point 3, I absolutley stand behind and is the whole point of this thread. We have players who I believe would play this role better, that's my opinion based on what I see week in week out (Not just against Chelsea). I believe Yaya would be much better suited in Barry's role along side De Jong and as the more likely player of that duo to take the ball forward (Something he does very well).

Fare enough! I can't argue against opinion. But I can relay the facts and proffer an opinion as to what they say.

If I didn't believe in what I was saying I wouldn't have said it. I accept he is not solely to blame and I never claimed that he was. I merely said that I believe that this is Mancini's biggest fault. You may think it's slow build up, and I would say that could well be true also.

I think Mancini's biggest fault is the acquisition of players, who an unable to accomplish what seems to be his plan. My view of what is wrong with City is off left field anyway so I seldom voice it. I think the greatest difference in terms of creating chances, between City and other teams around it, is the limited nature of a majority of our players. They are what I call specialists. Very good at somethings but not well rounded as footballers.

If you think Yaya is the best AM we have and is the equal of any other AM or No10 (style player) in the Premiership then say so. If you don't then what is your point? Or, are you just wanting to air your voice with pointless stats which show nothing and waste my time?

Again you are back to ridiculing me. Lol! Seems you can't help it. Oh well! But as to your question, I think it is too simplistic in a sense. As a regular AM, Silva is by far a better player than Yaya, but does that mean Yaya is not the best AM option we have? No! Yaya could be. As having Silva in a drifting wide position, makes him and even more elusive target to shadow and shut down. Thus making him more important to us floating. As opposed to being the AM. Mind you, are 2 closest chances in the game came due to the confusion caused by the floating nature of Silva. I.e. We are likely to create more chances when Silva is not easily identifiable by the DM of the other squad.
So Yaya who is not as creative as Silva, may be a better fit for a central role on a team where creativity overall is lacking. But if the question is whether Yaya is capable of playing the role on a top 4 squad? Absofukinglutely yes he is !<br /><br />-- Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:08 am --<br /><br />

Fuzz, my advice is leave well alone or you'll be wading through treacle all day. I've been there on this exact same point with Dax. No offence, Dax, your loyalty to Ya Ya is commendable.

Actually, it is more my loyalty to accuracy in what is being claimed. I have said on many occasions that I do not like Yaya any more than I like many other players on the squad. I have aslo similarly accused Yaya of some terrible play (mostly on defense) for meandering around, pretending to be joining in in defensive efforts. That said, I also refute claims I sense are an addition to a general dislike for the player. I do the same for Barry too. By and large I defend players who are often accused of being shitty. Why? For obvious reasons: They are mostly likely those who folks would blame for our poor play because most folks already have a sour disposition towards them.

Unlike you, I often restrict my comments to particulars. I stay within the parameters of games. Argue based on facts suggested by certain games and what happened in them. I don't cannonize any of our players, nor do I demonize any of them. Just try my best to follow the facts and events that occur in a game with an open mind while trying to dissuade myself of any pre-existing bias.

Do I have those biases? Absolutely! But I am aware of that, hence why I review, recheck, re-compare and re-evaluate. I want what I believe to be as close to the truth as possible. So I can best use that info in my personal endeavors coaching, and yes in these discussions that are often off the mark!

But the exchange with Fuzz has been quite enjoyable. He unlike you, wants the truth and values the fairness of his opinion. You on the other hand don't. And often run when your claims do not tally up with the facts :) But I enjoy that too

I.e . Making you run :P

 

[Fuzzmaster101]

Fuzz, my advice is leave well alone or you'll be wading through treacle all day. I've been there on this exact same point with Dax. No offence, Dax, your loyalty to Ya Ya is commendable.

I've not been on here much recently so I've not read much of any previous arguments but this is a problem that has bugged me all season, not just in the Chelsea match. It's not the only problem, but I believe it's the biggest one. That's my opinion. I've now spent hours here defending something which is an opinion against stats which prove nothing. I have a headache and I need to do something else.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Fuzz, my advice is leave well alone or you'll be wading through treacle all day. I've been there on this exact same point with Dax. No offence, Dax, your loyalty to Ya Ya is commendable.

I've not been on here much recently so I've not read much of any previous arguments but this is a problem that has bugged me all season, not just in the Chelsea match. It's not the only problem, but I believe it's the biggest one. That's my opinion. I've now spent hours here defending something which is an opinion against stats which prove nothing. I have a headache and I need to do something else.

As I linked to you earlier, I totally concur with your opinion mate, but you're referring to my "treacle" analogy above. Let it drop, plenty of good posters agree with you ;-)