Manuel Pellegrini (cont)

[supercity88]

You have to stop making excuses for both the players and the manager at some stage. We've seen the front foot system working very well in big games against the likes of Chelsea and our players have shown they can do it. We've also shown quick passing, quick attacks and good play. So why are we so stale at the moment and why so many mistakes? I'll say it again... it's because when you play this system it's all for one and one for all. If one player neglects their role the whole team is let down. If player A dives in and misses the tackle it then leaves two players on Player B. At times the opposition are left with so much room to attack in and our defence is all over the place trying to decide whether to cover runners or go to the ball. It's all because the central midfield is diving in and not making it count.

You don't have to dive in when you play on the front foot. Mangala played it perfectly with Costa in the home game with Chelsea. He stood him up and pressured him and chose the right time to try and knick the ball or get a foot in. If you make the wrong call in midfield and allow a break of 3 on 2, 4 on 3 or 5 on 4 you immediately cause havoc when there's 30 yards to counter attack into. You can't allow the player with the ball to run unopposed but like a simple rugby move when someone comes to tackle you release the ball and take that defender out of the game. That's in essence what is happening to us this season and for me it comes from a failure to adequately defend and restrict the opposition in midfield.

The manager needs to sort out those issues - he did at one stage but they've come back again. I think we have to look to the 4-4-2 again in most games with Yaya and Fernandinho in the middle, Nasri and Silva "wide" and Bony and Aguero up top. We should at least score more than we concede in that case.

The players are good enough. I don't believe a defender at the top level is only able to play one way. John Terry is very good at reading the game and Camel gob was too. They could both make the right choice as to whether to intercept the ball, whether to make a tackle or whether to defend the space. It's about a defensive partnership. Kompany can marshal and stand players up, Mangala can get a foot in and have the pace to cover ground.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

A very very good post mate, of course Tolmie is right about the goals but its the bloody system that makes all of our defenders as you say make last ditch stupid tackles on a regular basis.

Too many of these 'last ditch' as you put it tackles, are not last ditch though, they are taking place close to the half way line.

I understand the thinking behind them, ie getting us back on the attack quickly, the very thing many of us want us to do, but we're not winning them, so that is an issue, and we end up conceding daft goals as a result. If being 'pragmatic' means cutting these out then I'm all for it. Our CB's in particular should not be making 'last ditch' tackles on the half way line, they are better, more intelligent footballers than that, same goes for CM players not winning similar tackles and putting the CB's under unnecessary pressure.

Remind me the last time you can recall one of our midfielders making a tackle to actually win back possession, rather than a loose ball from the opposition or Fernandinho anticipating a cut-out?

We have zero bite across the middle of the pitch.

Horses for courses.

Clichy becomes a top grade full-back when he defends on the front foot and attempts to nip in and tackle. He also has the luxury of having the pace to get back and have another bite if there is still 30 yards in behind him.

Zabba is a liability with regards yellow cards attempting to do the same.

Kompany has always tried to anticipate and challenge high up the field, even under Mancini (sending off against United) He's simply not quick enough now to get away with it and has to tailor his game like a proper Italian great in the next few years.

Ironically, Mangala is actually perfect for the front foot thinking (when his maturity allows him not to panic and foul)

So the question is that the system might not be so flawed, more an acceptance from the manager that some of his personnel are?

A fundamental problem with that is Mangala has had his card marked like Balotelli, and thus when he touches an attacker he gets an automatic foul and yellow card against him.

 

[chris85mcfc]

The manager needs to sort out those issues - he did at one stage but they've come back again. I think we have to look to the 4-4-2 again in most games with Yaya and Fernandinho in the middle, Nasri and Silva "wide" and Bony and Aguero up top. We should at least score more than we concede in that case.

Good post mate. This is the bit that stands out to me, our best performances have come when we have had all of these players fit (Negredo instead of Bony).

But due to injury problems with Sergio, and 4-6 weeks without Yaya, its quite embarrassing that we don't really have another plan to turn to.

Yaya is a top class player and that shouldn't be underestimated, but a top side like ours shouldn't be so heavily reliant on one player and one plan.

 

[cibaman]

Can it simply not be down to the players not simply giving enough shit because that's what it looks like to me. Where the hell has the pressing the ball gone. I remember saying to a mate of mine that finally we had a team that actually pressed the ball. Look at the two best teams in modern history, Barcelona & Bayern. The way they played the game was very different but the fundamental attribute to their success was they were both pressing teams. They hunted the ball and won it more often than not. City need to get back to basics as on paper we have as good a side in the premier league as anyone. So for me its the lack of pressing leading to our downfall which in turns the players are either being told not to press which means its the managers issue or they just don't listen to the manager either way its a mess.

No. But I do wonder if they've become to accustomed to thinking that dropping points in individual games isnt a big deal, as long as we end the season well.

 

[Lancet Fluke]

The manager needs to sort out those issues - he did at one stage but they've come back again. I think we have to look to the 4-4-2 again in most games with Yaya and Fernandinho in the middle, Nasri and Silva "wide" and Bony and Aguero up top. We should at least score more than we concede in that case.

Good post mate. This is the bit that stands out to me, our best performances have come when we have had all of these players fit (Negredo instead of Bony).

But due to injury problems with Sergio, and 4-6 weeks without Yaya, its quite embarrassing that we don't really have another plan to turn to.

Yaya is a top class player and that shouldn't be underestimated, but a top side like ours shouldn't be so heavily reliant on one player and one plan.

Especially when that player is nearly 32 and quite possibly wants to leave anyway. Worrying.

 

[Stephenhakin]

The manager needs to sort out those issues - he did at one stage but they've come back again. I think we have to look to the 4-4-2 again in most games with Yaya and Fernandinho in the middle, Nasri and Silva "wide" and Bony and Aguero up top. We should at least score more than we concede in that case.

Good post mate. This is the bit that stands out to me, our best performances have come when we have had all of these players fit (Negredo instead of Bony).

But due to injury problems with Sergio, and 4-6 weeks without Yaya, its quite embarrassing that we don't really have another plan to turn to.

Yaya is a top class player and that shouldn't be underestimated, but a top side like ours shouldn't be so heavily reliant on one player and one plan.

Especially when that player is nearly 32 and quite possibly wants to leave anyway. Worrying.

So this is basically claiming what I claimed yesterday that our transfer policy is completely flawed and somebody should be made accountable for it.

 

[Shaelumstash]

The deficiencies in our defence are no worse than previous. They are simply highlighted more because we can't take the chances we create.

I respect a lot of what you say generally but IMO this is utter bollocks. If you can't see that the defence is working less well under Pellegrini than under Mancini and that it is becoming less well organised with every passing month then you must be watching different matches from me. Personally I think it is to do with the whole way that Pellegrini wants us to defend. Much was made on here when he first arrived about how it was all about the high line, stepping up to play offside and proactively trying to win the ball as early and as high up the pitch as possible. I think he sees defending as more about trying to start attacks than stop the oppostion scoring which might be ok when we are scoring stacks of goals but as soon as the goals dry up at all then the whole defensive system becomes a total liability and can't be relied upon to help us grind out results. I think it is an almost impossible system to implement successfully, it asks way too much of the defenders who generally look shit in it (how are you going to look anything other than an impetuous, poor defender when you're expected to dive in 40 yards up the pitch) and it has subsequently resulted in all our defenders completely losing confidence and with that also their organisation and composure. I wasn't the biggest fan of Mancini but he helped Kompany and Zabaleta become genuinely world class defenders, this way of defending has reduced them to chumps. I've come to the conclusion it isn't even worth judging Mangala until as a team we go back to trying to defend properly because not one of our defenders has a chance of looking decent at the moment. It doesn't matter what personnel we have in there, they all look as incompetent as each other and I cannot believe that it isn't the fault of the system/manager. The irony is that Nastasic was fucked off supposedly because he didn't suit Pellegrini's defensive tactics but the truth is we don't have one defender that suits those tactics and I'm not convinced any exist anywhere because they are just rank bad defensive tactics imo. I like Pellegrini but defensively he has left a lot to be desired for much of his time with us. I'm sure I'll get all kinds of shit for saying it.

So what's different between this season and last, bud?

It is the same system which resulted in a league title and a cup?

Nobody is doing anything differently, outside of the tap being turned off in terms of goals and those margins between success and failure are even slimmer as a result.

Under Mancini, the system was effectively a third central defender due to Barry or De Jong screening. The failure to retain the title in 2012-13 was down to a lack of goals, as the tactics remained the same, outside of the disastrous experiment with three at the back.

I see the same correlation this season under Pellegrini.

My argument has long been if we had spent £32m on Sachez or Fabregas, rather than Mangala, we would not be talking about the failings of the defensive system.

Clichy started this season terribly, and was one of the main culprits of making Mangala look ridiculous, refusing to cut off that repeat ball inside the channel between them.

Zabba? I see a guy who has run through bricks walls for two years and played at a World Cup, he is still our best attacking outlet in this system, although I think games have caught up with him this season.

I think the manager can rectify a few issues by signing an all-round midfielder who has the energy levels to screen but also come and collect the ball off the back four and take away their responsibility for setting up attacks, when teams close the supply to Silva or Nasri?

The difference is the pressure on the ball from midfield. If you play a high line and don't put pressure on the oppositions midfield you are basically asking them to run right through the middle of you. As I pointed out in the Fernando thread, our win percentage in the league when Fernando doesn't start is 78%. That's last seasons, title winning form. 2 quality central midfielders, Yaya dictating play, Fernandinho pressing the opposition and winning the ball back quickly.

In contrast, when Fernando starts our win percentage is 46%, that's relegation form. When he plays alongside Yaya, neither press the ball, neither track runners very well, so teams just walk straight through the middle of us, like West Ham did. When Fernando plays alongside Fernandinho, it is Dinho's responsibility to be the more attacking of the two, so he's playing higher up the pitch, and so not doing the same defensive job he does when playing alongside Yaya. Fernando just wanders around the centre circle, occasionally putting out a nominal leg as the opposing midfielders run rings around him.

When Fernando plays our defence is under so much more pressure that they end up making silly mistakes, diving in and giving away fouls. I never saw Steve Daley play, but I fail to see how he could have had amore detrimental effect on the team than Fernando does.

 

[Pablo ZZZ Peroni]

Would that be the last month when Aguero was less than half-fit? or Dzeko sidelined? Perhaps when Nasri was absent?

Remind me again, what did Pellegrini do prior to their return?

Regardless of the standard of the opposition, he operated without a recognised striker and Milner and Silva were able to contribute with goals and victories.

And all that, without Kompany even in the defensive ranks.

We're not moving the ball quickly enough because the one guy who does that for us has been helping his country win AFCON.

I lost count of the number of chances we had against United, West Ham, a crossbar and a stonewall pen against Stoke, even Chelsea the other week when both Sergio and Fernandinho should have scored.

Pellegrini's biggest failing, if you see it as that, is he retains a little too much faith in certain players, because of what they achieved last year.

And those same guys have not been at the races due to returning from the World Cup, injuries and a lack of momentum.

Again in agreement with you. Just picking up on a couple of points:

1. There is a very fine line between hitting the woodwork and scoring. We have hit the woodwork 10 times in the league this season which (with Burnley) is more than anyone else in the league. To put that figure into perspective last year we hit the woodwork 10 times ALL season.

2. There has been a fall off in our percentage of shots on target. We are not as ruthless which is down to the players and not the system.


A couple of interesting stats:

1. We have had more attempts at goal this season than any other team in Europe (5 main leagues)

The top 3 in Europe are:

City 410
Liverpool 398
Real Madrid 392

If we adjust for attempts per game the top 4 are:

Real Madrid 17.8
Bayern 17.8
Juventus 17.2
City 17.1


We are achieving these high figures WHILST restricting opponents to fewer opportunities in the Premier League than anyone else (except Southampton) this season AND than under Mancini in 2011/2012. (I loved Mancini so not taking sides)

And what are the quality of the chances we create and concede and is this argument about chances created/conceded any different to LVG waving dossiers about and redefing what is and what isn't a 'long ball'?

As a general point stats of this type in isolation are indicators only but there is an obvious correlation between them and actual performance/results .... just look at the 4 teams there.

You can drill down into the "attempts" stats and highlight areas where the attempt was made from " inside 6 yard box, inside penalty area, outside penalty area etc etc. Simplistically, attempts from inside the 6 yard box > Inside the penalty area > outside the penalty area. In data terms are attempts are good - for example, City and Bayern are the top 2 teams in Europe for attempts from inside the box. Of course, you have to factor they are playing differnt opposition but interesting all the same.

As for Long Ball, the definition is "an attempted or accurate pass of 25 yards or more". About 15% of all there passess are accurate or inaccurate long balls. We are down at about 8%. As United are now a "passing team" (3rd behind City and Arsenal this season) it means it is 15% of a lot of passes so in absolute terms they have one hell of alot of long passes. In fact they top Europe for the most "accurate" long ball passes. That's where LVG's argument comes into play and the direction of the passess but the funny thing is it will stick with him now.

 

[NQCitizen]

I respect a lot of what you say generally but IMO this is utter bollocks. If you can't see that the defence is working less well under Pellegrini than under Mancini and that it is becoming less well organised with every passing month then you must be watching different matches from me. Personally I think it is to do with the whole way that Pellegrini wants us to defend. Much was made on here when he first arrived about how it was all about the high line, stepping up to play offside and proactively trying to win the ball as early and as high up the pitch as possible. I think he sees defending as more about trying to start attacks than stop the oppostion scoring which might be ok when we are scoring stacks of goals but as soon as the goals dry up at all then the whole defensive system becomes a total liability and can't be relied upon to help us grind out results. I think it is an almost impossible system to implement successfully, it asks way too much of the defenders who generally look shit in it (how are you going to look anything other than an impetuous, poor defender when you're expected to dive in 40 yards up the pitch) and it has subsequently resulted in all our defenders completely losing confidence and with that also their organisation and composure. I wasn't the biggest fan of Mancini but he helped Kompany and Zabaleta become genuinely world class defenders, this way of defending has reduced them to chumps. I've come to the conclusion it isn't even worth judging Mangala until as a team we go back to trying to defend properly because not one of our defenders has a chance of looking decent at the moment. It doesn't matter what personnel we have in there, they all look as incompetent as each other and I cannot believe that it isn't the fault of the system/manager. The irony is that Nastasic was fucked off supposedly because he didn't suit Pellegrini's defensive tactics but the truth is we don't have one defender that suits those tactics and I'm not convinced any exist anywhere because they are just rank bad defensive tactics imo. I like Pellegrini but defensively he has left a lot to be desired for much of his time with us. I'm sure I'll get all kinds of shit for saying it.

So what's different between this season and last, bud?

It is the same system which resulted in a league title and a cup?

Nobody is doing anything differently, outside of the tap being turned off in terms of goals and those margins between success and failure are even slimmer as a result.

Under Mancini, the system was effectively a third central defender due to Barry or De Jong screening. The failure to retain the title in 2012-13 was down to a lack of goals, as the tactics remained the same, outside of the disastrous experiment with three at the back.

I see the same correlation this season under Pellegrini.

My argument has long been if we had spent £32m on Sachez or Fabregas, rather than Mangala, we would not be talking about the failings of the defensive system.

Clichy started this season terribly, and was one of the main culprits of making Mangala look ridiculous, refusing to cut off that repeat ball inside the channel between them.

Zabba? I see a guy who has run through bricks walls for two years and played at a World Cup, he is still our best attacking outlet in this system, although I think games have caught up with him this season.

I think the manager can rectify a few issues by signing an all-round midfielder who has the energy levels to screen but also come and collect the ball off the back four and take away their responsibility for setting up attacks, when teams close the supply to Silva or Nasri?

The difference is the pressure on the ball from midfield. If you play a high line and don't put pressure on the oppositions midfield you are basically asking them to run right through the middle of you. As I pointed out in the Fernando thread, our win percentage in the league when Fernando doesn't start is 78%. That's last seasons, title winning form. 2 quality central midfielders, Yaya dictating play, Fernandinho pressing the opposition and winning the ball back quickly.

In contrast, when Fernando starts our win percentage is 46%, that's relegation form. When he plays alongside Yaya, neither press the ball, neither track runners very well, so teams just walk straight through the middle of us, like West Ham did. When Fernando plays alongside Fernandinho, it is Dinho's responsibility to be the more attacking of the two, so he's playing higher up the pitch, and so not doing the same defensive job he does when playing alongside Yaya. Fernando just wanders around the centre circle, occasionally putting out a nominal leg as the opposing midfielders run rings around him.

When Fernando plays our defence is under so much more pressure that they end up making silly mistakes, diving in and giving away fouls. I never saw Steve Daley play, but I fail to see how he could have had amore detrimental effect on the team than Fernando does.

Some really interesting stats there, great post.

 

[mosssideblue]

Too many of these 'last ditch' as you put it tackles, are not last ditch though, they are taking place close to the half way line.

I understand the thinking behind them, ie getting us back on the attack quickly, the very thing many of us want us to do, but we're not winning them, so that is an issue, and we end up conceding daft goals as a result. If being 'pragmatic' means cutting these out then I'm all for it. Our CB's in particular should not be making 'last ditch' tackles on the half way line, they are better, more intelligent footballers than that, same goes for CM players not winning similar tackles and putting the CB's under unnecessary pressure.

Remind me the last time you can recall one of our midfielders making a tackle to actually win back possession, rather than a loose ball from the opposition or Fernandinho anticipating a cut-out?

We have zero bite across the middle of the pitch.

Horses for courses.

Clichy becomes a top grade full-back when he defends on the front foot and attempts to nip in and tackle. He also has the luxury of having the pace to get back and have another bite if there is still 30 yards in behind him.

Zabba is a liability with regards yellow cards attempting to do the same.

Kompany has always tried to anticipate and challenge high up the field, even under Mancini (sending off against United) He's simply not quick enough now to get away with it and has to tailor his game like a proper Italian great in the next few years.

Ironically, Mangala is actually perfect for the front foot thinking (when his maturity allows him not to panic and foul)

So the question is that the system might not be so flawed, more an acceptance from the manager that some of his personnel are?

A fundamental problem with that is Mangala has had his card marked like Balotelli, and thus when he touches an attacker he gets an automatic foul and yellow card against him.

Sadly, that appears to be true.