Manuel Pellegrini (cont)

[cleavers]

Every loss this season has had the same pattern.

So should we just keep banging our head against a wall, or try a different approach?

Although I agree that we haven't taken our chances, those chances have been very few and far-between especially in the last month or so.

When we're not moving the ball around quickly we become very easy to defend against

For once Chris and please don't fall over i tend to agree with you.

Especially that last sentence.

Which is exactly what my earlier point today was about, the connection between both current and previous managers is that its many of the same players, assuming we don't score early, playing in the same slow way, against similar teams, that defend with 10, and its been the same since 2011.

When we score early, we usually win easily, but if we don't score early we end up playing the ball in front of the packed defences, making little but half chances, having pot shots from 25 yards, or trying to walk the ball through them into the net. Add to that a defence (and midfield) gifting stupid goals away, and we've turned our 1-0's into 1-1's, much as we did in 2012-13.

Nobody is saying the defence is perfect, as tolmie rightly says, its never been good enough for regular 1-0 wins, but the lack of goals is killing us this season, and I can't see how being more 'pragmatic' is going to increase our goal tally. What we need to be is quicker to break forward, instead of this laboured sideways game. Being more pragmatic also won't necessarily stop the 'stupid' goal, that is down to the mental attitude of some of the players, diving into tackles in areas of the field, where its not necessary, something that Fernando, Mangala, and Kompany are particularly prone too this season.

One other thing, if you're not scoring, and yet averaging 12 or more corners a game, FFS make the corners more dangerous, if we created 1 decent chance for every 12 corners, it would be a significant improvement on the current situation, and that is the managers responsibility, I don't think anyone is less dangerous from corners than City.

 

[blueinsa]

Talking of chances, we are guilty of over playing it so many times and instead of just pulling the trigger and buying a ticket, we want that extra pass and it invariably leads to nothing.

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

Every loss this season has had the same pattern.

So should we just keep banging our head against a wall, or try a different approach?

Although I agree that we haven't taken our chances, those chances have been very few and far-between especially in the last month or so.

When we're not moving the ball around quickly we become very easy to defend against

Would that be the last month when Aguero was less than half-fit? or Dzeko sidelined? Perhaps when Nasri was absent?

Remind me again, what did Pellegrini do prior to their return?

Regardless of the standard of the opposition, he operated without a recognised striker and Milner and Silva were able to contribute with goals and victories.

And all that, without Kompany even in the defensive ranks.

We're not moving the ball quickly enough because the one guy who does that for us has been helping his country win AFCON.

I lost count of the number of chances we had against United, West Ham, a crossbar and a stonewall pen against Stoke, even Chelsea the other week when both Sergio and Fernandinho should have scored.

Pellegrini's biggest failing, if you see it as that, is he retains a little too much faith in certain players, because of what they achieved last year.

And those same guys have not been at the races due to returning from the World Cup, injuries and a lack of momentum.

 

[Juan King]

Case in point, bud, Nasri.

His only goal is the crucial opener against Roma, which changes the whole mindset of the team.

It's such fine margins. Stoke, Boro, Hull, West Ham, all lethargic displays but still with enough opportunities to have put a different slant on the outcome.

Mancini's team, same goes for Sunderland (thrice) and Everton (twice) - all possession, two or three chances spurned, lost it by an odd goal.

I will argue against myself here and say that although we are getting into goalscoring positions this season, they are not what you can define as clear cut.

Which requires the attack to be sharper than normal.

I suppose it does depend on what defines a goal scoring opportunity.

We tend to dominate possession and control the game and we do have efforts on goal but often they are without real threat and more speculative because we like to carve teams open and often try to walk it in the net.

In terms of chances we concede - through controlling possession we don't tend to give away too many opportunities. What we do suffer from is leaving ourselves short at the back or making stupid mistakes and that leads to conceding goals. We could concede 2 shots per game but the way we are playing that will end up in the net.

Your final point sums up mine precisely.

Visiting teams (Boro aside) have had minimal chances but their conversion rate is nigh on perfect.

It's the reason why a sense of foreboding is tangible both inside the stadium and amongst the players when even an average team decide to break in numbers and move the ball quickly beyond our flimsy midfield.

Goals win games and our lack of ruthlessness is the only failing this season, which can't be put squarely at the foot of the manager, some bizarre subs and selctions, aside.

Put it this way, if Messi was in the team this season, and the defence remained the same, this league title would already be won in our favour.

Dzeko, Jovetic, the eagerness of Negredo to leave, Sergio's fitness, have had the biggest impact.

Our defence has NEVER BEEN GOOD ENOUGH to consistently grind out 1-0 wins.

Good points. I think the return of Yaya & the arrival of Bony will see us scoring more goals again & getting back on track.

 

[Lancet Fluke]

The deficiencies in our defence are no worse than previous. They are simply highlighted more because we can't take the chances we create.

I respect a lot of what you say generally but IMO this is utter bollocks. If you can't see that the defence is working less well under Pellegrini than under Mancini and that it is becoming less well organised with every passing month then you must be watching different matches from me. Personally I think it is to do with the whole way that Pellegrini wants us to defend. Much was made on here when he first arrived about how it was all about the high line, stepping up to play offside and proactively trying to win the ball as early and as high up the pitch as possible. I think he sees defending as more about trying to start attacks than stop the oppostion scoring which might be ok when we are scoring stacks of goals but as soon as the goals dry up at all then the whole defensive system becomes a total liability and can't be relied upon to help us grind out results. I think it is an almost impossible system to implement successfully, it asks way too much of the defenders who generally look shit in it (how are you going to look anything other than an impetuous, poor defender when you're expected to dive in 40 yards up the pitch) and it has subsequently resulted in all our defenders completely losing confidence and with that also their organisation and composure. I wasn't the biggest fan of Mancini but he helped Kompany and Zabaleta become genuinely world class defenders, this way of defending has reduced them to chumps. I've come to the conclusion it isn't even worth judging Mangala until as a team we go back to trying to defend properly because not one of our defenders has a chance of looking decent at the moment. It doesn't matter what personnel we have in there, they all look as incompetent as each other and I cannot believe that it isn't the fault of the system/manager. The irony is that Nastasic was fucked off supposedly because he didn't suit Pellegrini's defensive tactics but the truth is we don't have one defender that suits those tactics and I'm not convinced any exist anywhere because they are just rank bad defensive tactics imo. I like Pellegrini but defensively he has left a lot to be desired for much of his time with us. I'm sure I'll get all kinds of shit for saying it.

A very very good post mate, of course Tolmie is right about the goals but its the bloody system that makes all of our defenders as you say make last ditch stupid tackles on a regular basis.

he wont change his ways on the system, it will be one good year one bad under him, its all hunky dory when we are scoring (have to) 3-4 goals a game but complete amateurish at the back when we dont.

Well if nothing else I've probably guaranteed we will get a clean sheet tonight by saying all that. I'm just off to the "corners" thread to criticise those so get your money on 1-0 to City with a corner swung directly into the net.

 

[BobKowalski]

So should we just keep banging our head against a wall, or try a different approach?

Although I agree that we haven't taken our chances, those chances have been very few and far-between especially in the last month or so.

When we're not moving the ball around quickly we become very easy to defend against

For once Chris and please don't fall over i tend to agree with you.

Especially that last sentence.

Which is exactly what my earlier point today was about, the connection between both current and previous managers is that its many of the same players, assuming we don't score early, playing in the same slow way, against similar teams, that defend with 10, and its been the same since 2011.

When we score early, we usually win easily, but if we don't score early we end up playing the ball in front of the packed defences, making little but half chances, having pot shots from 25 yards, or trying to walk the ball through them into the net. Add to that a defence (and midfield) gifting stupid goals away, and we've turned our 1-0's into 1-1's, much as we did in 2012-13.

Nobody is saying the defence is perfect, as tolmie rightly says, its never been good enough for regular 1-0 wins, but the lack of goals is killing us this season, and I can't see how being more 'pragmatic' is going to increase our goal tally. What we need to be is quicker to break forward, instead of this laboured sideways game. Being more pragmatic also won't necessarily stop the 'stupid' goal, that is down to the mental attitude of some of the players, diving into tackles in areas of the field, where its not necessary, something that Fernando, Mangala, and Kompany are particularly prone too this season.

One other thing, if you're not scoring, and yet averaging 12 or more corners a game, FFS make the corners more dangerous, if we created 1 decent chance for every 12 corners, it would be a significant improvement on the current situation, and that is the managers responsibility, I don't think anyone is less dangerous from corners than City.

Take your point but I would argue the 'stupid goals' are the byproduct of uncertainty and lack of confidence which is down to the system we employ. The system and the problems it brings are not an issue when you are scoring a shed load of goals indeed if the way we play leads to us scoring goals then you can legitimately argue it is an acceptable tradeoff.

When you are not scoring it does spotlight the defensive problems and you either trust in the system to rectify itself and plow on regardless or you adopt a more pragmatic approach (which we did through an absence of strikers). Pellers is all for trusting in his approach and it may yet pay dividends but we are running out of time.

 

[Lancet Fluke]

So should we just keep banging our head against a wall, or try a different approach?

Although I agree that we haven't taken our chances, those chances have been very few and far-between especially in the last month or so.

When we're not moving the ball around quickly we become very easy to defend against

For once Chris and please don't fall over i tend to agree with you.

Especially that last sentence.

Which is exactly what my earlier point today was about, the connection between both current and previous managers is that its many of the same players, assuming we don't score early, playing in the same slow way, against similar teams, that defend with 10, and its been the same since 2011.

When we score early, we usually win easily, but if we don't score early we end up playing the ball in front of the packed defences, making little but half chances, having pot shots from 25 yards, or trying to walk the ball through them into the net. Add to that a defence (and midfield) gifting stupid goals away, and we've turned our 1-0's into 1-1's, much as we did in 2012-13.

Nobody is saying the defence is perfect, as tolmie rightly says, its never been good enough for regular 1-0 wins, but the lack of goals is killing us this season, and I can't see how being more 'pragmatic' is going to increase our goal tally. What we need to be is quicker to break forward, instead of this laboured sideways game. Being more pragmatic also won't necessarily stop the 'stupid' goal, that is down to the mental attitude of some of the players, diving into tackles in areas of the field, where its not necessary, something that Fernando, Mangala, and Kompany are particularly prone too this season.

One other thing, if you're not scoring, and yet averaging 12 or more corners a game, FFS make the corners more dangerous, if we created 1 decent chance for every 12 corners, it would be a significant improvement on the current situation, and that is the managers responsibility, I don't think anyone is less dangerous from corners than City.

You're assuming this is players making bad decisions, I assume it is what they are being instructed to do seeing as it is something that has become an epidemic amongst our defenders since Pellegrini took over. Certainly when he took over I read plenty on here about how diving in trying to win the ball (in areas that I personally would describe as unnecessary) was a tactic to "get us on the front foot". Kompany always had it in him to do it on occasion but you felt like there was some element of judgement in it but in the last 18 months they have all done it and they don't even tend to pick their moments. DeMichelis who came in because he supposedly understood the way Pellegrini wants us to defend came in and for about 6 months did little else other than dive into tackles on the half way line so I guess that is just the way the manager wants it.

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

The deficiencies in our defence are no worse than previous. They are simply highlighted more because we can't take the chances we create.

I respect a lot of what you say generally but IMO this is utter bollocks. If you can't see that the defence is working less well under Pellegrini than under Mancini and that it is becoming less well organised with every passing month then you must be watching different matches from me. Personally I think it is to do with the whole way that Pellegrini wants us to defend. Much was made on here when he first arrived about how it was all about the high line, stepping up to play offside and proactively trying to win the ball as early and as high up the pitch as possible. I think he sees defending as more about trying to start attacks than stop the oppostion scoring which might be ok when we are scoring stacks of goals but as soon as the goals dry up at all then the whole defensive system becomes a total liability and can't be relied upon to help us grind out results. I think it is an almost impossible system to implement successfully, it asks way too much of the defenders who generally look shit in it (how are you going to look anything other than an impetuous, poor defender when you're expected to dive in 40 yards up the pitch) and it has subsequently resulted in all our defenders completely losing confidence and with that also their organisation and composure. I wasn't the biggest fan of Mancini but he helped Kompany and Zabaleta become genuinely world class defenders, this way of defending has reduced them to chumps. I've come to the conclusion it isn't even worth judging Mangala until as a team we go back to trying to defend properly because not one of our defenders has a chance of looking decent at the moment. It doesn't matter what personnel we have in there, they all look as incompetent as each other and I cannot believe that it isn't the fault of the system/manager. The irony is that Nastasic was fucked off supposedly because he didn't suit Pellegrini's defensive tactics but the truth is we don't have one defender that suits those tactics and I'm not convinced any exist anywhere because they are just rank bad defensive tactics imo. I like Pellegrini but defensively he has left a lot to be desired for much of his time with us. I'm sure I'll get all kinds of shit for saying it.

So what's different between this season and last, bud?

It is the same system which resulted in a league title and a cup?

Nobody is doing anything differently, outside of the tap being turned off in terms of goals and those margins between success and failure are even slimmer as a result.

Under Mancini, the system was effectively a third central defender due to Barry or De Jong screening. The failure to retain the title in 2012-13 was down to a lack of goals, as the tactics remained the same, outside of the disastrous experiment with three at the back.

I see the same correlation this season under Pellegrini.

My argument has long been if we had spent £32m on Sachez or Fabregas, rather than Mangala, we would not be talking about the failings of the defensive system.

Clichy started this season terribly, and was one of the main culprits of making Mangala look ridiculous, refusing to cut off that repeat ball inside the channel between them.

Zabba? I see a guy who has run through bricks walls for two years and played at a World Cup, he is still our best attacking outlet in this system, although I think games have caught up with him this season.

I think the manager can rectify a few issues by signing an all-round midfielder who has the energy levels to screen but also come and collect the ball off the back four and take away their responsibility for setting up attacks, when teams close the supply to Silva or Nasri?

 

[cleavers]

A very very good post mate, of course Tolmie is right about the goals but its the bloody system that makes all of our defenders as you say make last ditch stupid tackles on a regular basis.

Too many of these 'last ditch' as you put it tackles, are not last ditch though, they are taking place close to the half way line.

I understand the thinking behind them, ie getting us back on the attack quickly, the very thing many of us want us to do, but we're not winning them, so that is an issue, and we end up conceding daft goals as a result. If being 'pragmatic' means cutting these out then I'm all for it. Our CB's in particular should not be making 'last ditch' tackles on the half way line, they are better, more intelligent footballers than that, same goes for CM players not winning similar tackles and putting the CB's under unnecessary pressure.

 

[BlueTG]

For our abundance of talent and style of play, more often than not our best form of defence is attack.
This year the attack has had very obvious short-comings and the defence (we were 2nd best in the league, with some susceptible performances as every season brings) has been slightly more exposed due to this. But the defence are also making more mistakes.

As previous posters have pointed to, our attack compensated our defence. It's failing to do that regualrly this season and our defence is also letting us down badly.