Mark Clattenburg

Prestwich_Blue said:
Being reported that MP will face no action for his post-match comments. That would have just rubbed salt into the wounds if he'd been charged.
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If they had charged him there would have been a repeated airing of the incident- this way he can be kept out of the headline news
 
forensic onions said:
But lets say a pass is played from 30-40 yards away, even if the lino is level with the last man how can he possibly be looking to see when the ball precisely leaves the passers foot and at the same time judge the precise time an attacker makes a clever run to beat the trap? It's physically impossible because players can be a cm onside or offside in a fraction of a second.
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I feel the need to challenge this. I am a former linesman, and have officiated at Maine Road and Old Trafford. It is quite easy and commonplace to judge offside following a pass from another player who is in the other half of the pitch when he makes the pass.

For one thing, in this situation, there is unlikely to be a high degree of opposition pressure on the passer, if he is making a 50 yard pass. It is either a free kick, or he is in plenty of space. So, as he draws back his leg to make the kick, you can very easily compute the moment of contact with the ball, and glance along the line of the defence (where you should be positioned) and capture that picture in your mind at the moment the pass is made. You can also often hear when the kicker's foot impacts the ball, and judge the offside at the exact time you hear that sound. Experienced linesmen and lineswomen are able to make those close judgement calls and should not be making regular mistakes on offside decisions. If Aguero was given offside incorrectly on more than one occasion in quick succession, then the linesman is not doing his job properly. He is either bad at his job, or a cheat.

Another point which I sometimes think could have a bearing on decision making from officials is which team they truly support. We hear stories of referees like Mason and Taylor supporting United, but declaring allegiance to other teams (Bolton and Altrincham in these cases). Now Taylor is from Wythenshawe, as I am originally. I can honestly say I do not know one person from Wythenshawe whose favourite club is Altrincham. It is either City or United. And I grew up in a time when Altrincham were quite a successful side in cup competitions, with quite a few giant-killing achievements.

When this current batch of referees were young, maybe 20-30 years ago, who did they support? The chances are they supported either their home town team, or barring that, the most successful team of the time. That would be Manchester United or Liverpool in most cases. I suspect many referees were United or Liverpool fans as children, and those allegiances (as well as certain prejudices) are now deeply embedded in their psyche.
 
Eli Panic said:
I feel the need to challenge this. I am a former linesman, and have officiated at Maine Road and Old Trafford. It is quite easy and commonplace to judge offside following a pass from another player who is in the other half of the pitch when he makes the pass.

For one thing, in this situation, there is unlikely to be a high degree of opposition pressure on the passer, if he is making a 50 yard pass. It is either a free kick, or he is in plenty of space. So, as he draws back his leg to make the kick, you can very easily compute the moment of contact with the ball, and glance along the line of the defence (where you should be positioned) and capture that picture in your mind at the moment the pass is made. You can also often hear when the kicker's foot impacts the ball, and judge the offside at the exact time you hear that sound. Experienced linesmen and lineswomen are able to make those close judgement calls and should not be making regular mistakes on offside decisions. If Aguero was given offside incorrectly on more than one occasion in quick succession, then the linesman is not doing his job properly. He is either bad at his job, or a cheat.

Another point which I sometimes think could have a bearing on decision making from officials is which team they truly support. We hear stories of referees like Mason and Taylor supporting United, but declaring allegiance to other teams (Bolton and Altrincham in these cases). Now Taylor is from Wythenshawe, as I am originally. I can honestly say I do not know one person from Wythenshawe whose favourite club is Altrincham. It is either City or United. And I grew up in a time when Altrincham were quite a successful side in cup competitions, with quite a few giant-killing achievements.

When this current batch of referees were young, maybe 20-30 years ago, who did they support? The chances are they supported either their home town team, or barring that, the most successful team of the time. That would be Manchester United or Liverpool in most cases. I suspect many referees were United or Liverpool fans as children, and those allegiances (as well as certain prejudices) are now deeply embedded in their psyche.
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That's a really interesting post. Being an experienced linesman yourself, what did you make of the three offside decisions in the second half against Spurs?
 
Colin Bell's Boots said:
he has been referred to as the " best referee in the PL " ..................................but not by anybody you could trust or want to take notice of.
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These comments often come out to counteract a deluge of outrage at a decision that 'the best ref in the PL' has just made at the weekend, that any other whistling wanker would not have made this side of The Swamp.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
That's a really interesting post. Being an experienced linesman yourself, what did you make of the three offside decisions in the second half against Spurs?
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I was watching it on SkyGo on my iPad, and slightly distracted with other family circumstances. At the time of viewing, I thought all three were very close. Sky did a freeze frame for one of them, and this showed Aguero as just offside. I didn't see them freeze the action for the other two though, but I had a general feeling of injustice. I have since seen on this thread, a screen shot of one of the decisions where Aguero is onside, fractionally after the ball was played to him, so that evens it up. I haven't seen anything conclusive on the third decision though.

But it was very strange to rule three marginal decisions in quick succession all with the same outcome. Fair play to the linesman if they were all proved to be correct decisions, but as has been seen subsequently, they weren't all correct. You also get a feel for the accuracy of the decision from the reaction of the crowd behind the linesman. Home fans become very animated after an incorrect decision, and they were clearly frustrated at this linesman. This to me, suggests he was making mistakes.
 
Eli Panic said:
I was watching it on SkyGo on my iPad, and slightly distracted with other family circumstances. At the time of viewing, I thought all three were very close. Sky did a freeze frame for one of them, and this showed Aguero as just offside. I didn't see them freeze the action for the other two though, but I had a general feeling of injustice. I have since seen on this thread, a screen shot of one of the decisions where Aguero is onside, fractionally after the ball was played to him, so that evens it up. I haven't seen anything conclusive on the third decision though.

But it was very strange to rule three marginal decisions in quick succession all with the same outcome. Fair play to the linesman if they were all proved to be correct decisions, but as has been seen subsequently, they weren't all correct. You also get a feel for the accuracy of the decision from the reaction of the crowd behind the linesman. Home fans become very animated after an incorrect decision, and they were clearly frustrated at this linesman. This to me, suggests he was making mistakes.
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I was at the game very close to all three decisions. My conclusion after freeze framing all of them was: first, Aguero marginally offside, second and most obvious chance, on side (not marginal) second onside (marginal). The point though, is I thought the linesman had to be sure before he blew. Even if his judgement was supernatural for the first as it was so marginal, he couldn't have seen the other two because they were both onside. The fact he blew for all three very quickly made me extremely suspicious. Still very angry about the way the game was officiated.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
I was at the game very close to all three decisions. My conclusion after freeze framing all of them was: first, Aguero marginally offside, second and most obvious chance, on side (not marginal) second onside (marginal). The point though, is I thought the linesman had to be sure before he blew. Even if his judgement was supernatural for the first as it was so marginal, he couldn't have seen the other two because they were both onside. The fact he blew for all three very quickly made me extremely suspicious. Still very angry about the way the game was officiated.
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The combo of Crappenberg and his lino acolytes make me feel that they are gonna be ultra-decisive and not in our favour. The speed with which the flag went up for Aguero compares most markedly when we FOC's in CBL3 are screaming for the lino below us to flag the most obvious offside, and who waits for so long that I think he isn't giving it!

The speed with which Crapps made his penalty decision and the immediate fixing of a poker face led me to think certain thoughts that have been well written on this thread already!!
 
Dave Ewing's Back 'eader said:
The combo of Crappenberg and his lino acolytes make me feel that they are gonna be ultra-decisive and not in our favour. The speed with which the flag went up for Aguero compares most markedly when we FOC's in CBL3 are screaming for the lino below us to flag the most obvious offside, and who waits for so long that I think he isn't giving it!

The speed with which Crapps made his penalty decision and the immediate fixing of a poker face led me to think certain thoughts that have been well written on this thread already!!
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I've not officiated at anything like that level for many years now, and in my day I only had the occasional higher profile game (fourth official D2, linesman at Macc Town for FA Cup preliminary round, Central League etc.) So I am not familiar with the recent phenomenon of allowing play to continue for a few seconds before a linesman raises his flag. I see it as giving the attacking team false hope, before cruelly snatching it back from them. In my day, we would flag an offside, and if play developed in a certain way, the referee would wave down the flag and continue the game.

I agree that the three offsides and the penalty decision were given very quickly, almost as if they were a pre-determined outcome to certain events. So, given the three offside goals in the game at WHL, Clattenburg might have instructed, "OK, let's not have any more offside goals today. If there is anything remotely marginal, I want an immediate flag from you." Hence no possibility of another controversial offside goal, but plenty of scope for incorrect offside decisions being made.

This of course is contrary to FA directives, which I understand are to err on the side of the attacking team, so the marginals should not be flagged.

The worst decision of the two games against Spurs was obviously the penalty given to Spurs. But the second worst decision was Kane's goal at WHL, which was scored following their free kick. As it was from a free kick, there is absolutely no excuse for the linesman to get that wrong. He can see the kicker running up to take the free kick, and he only has to glance along the line of defence to see two players clearly offside by some distance at the point the ball was kicked. One of them, Kane, then scores from the rebound. This has gone relatively unnoticed (the focus has been on other bad decisions). But this was a linesman failing to identify an offside from the easiest possible set of circumstances. It is hard to believe this was a genuine mistake by that official.
 
Eli Panic said:
I've not officiated at anything like that level for many years now, and in my day I only had the occasional higher profile game (fourth official D2, linesman at Macc Town for FA Cup preliminary round, Central League etc.) So I am not familiar with the recent phenomenon of allowing play to continue for a few seconds before a linesman raises his flag. I see it as giving the attacking team false hope, before cruelly snatching it back from them. In my day, we would flag an offside, and if play developed in a certain way, the referee would wave down the flag and continue the game.

I agree that the three offsides and the penalty decision were given very quickly, almost as if they were a pre-determined outcome to certain events. So, given the three offside goals in the game at WHL, Clattenburg might have instructed, "OK, let's not have any more offside goals today. If there is anything remotely marginal, I want an immediate flag from you." Hence no possibility of another controversial offside goal, but plenty of scope for incorrect offside decisions being made.

This of course is contrary to FA directives, which I understand are to err on the side of the attacking team, so the marginals should not be flagged.

The worst decision of the two games against Spurs was obviously the penalty given to Spurs. But the second worst decision was Kane's goal at WHL, which was scored following their free kick. As it was from a free kick, there is absolutely no excuse for the linesman to get that wrong. He can see the kicker running up to take the free kick, and he only has to glance along the line of defence to see two players clearly offside by some distance at the point the ball was kicked. One of them, Kane, then scores from the rebound. This has gone relatively unnoticed (the focus has been on other bad decisions). But this was a linesman failing to identify an offside from the easiest possible set of circumstances. It is hard to believe this was a genuine mistake by that official.
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These 'clear cut' decisions are the ones that make folk wonder the most. It seems obvious to all and sundry bar the lino that a player is in an offside position. It's not as thought the offsides are coming at the rate of ten a minute. When I did a bit of lining it was a simple situation - eye and brain engage and the rest is pretty automatic! It makes me wonder endlessly what aspect of the brain messages inside a linos head are getting priority!

The Kyle Walker offside at The Lane beggars belief, and the obvious question should be raised with the lino at the end of the half - What the fuck were you looking at when there is an attacking player three yards offside, right under yer fuckin' nose?
 
Dave Ewing's Back 'eader said:
These 'clear cut' decisions are the ones that make folk wonder the most. It seems obvious to all and sundry bar the lino that a player is in an offside position. It's not as thought the offsides are coming at the rate of ten a minute. When I did a bit of lining it was a simple situation - eye and brain engage and the rest is pretty automatic! It makes me wonder endlessly what aspect of the brain messages inside a linos head are getting priority!

The Kyle Walker offside at The Lane beggars belief, and the obvious question should be raised with the lino at the end of the half - What the fuck were you looking at when there is an attacking player three yards offside, right under yer fuckin' nose?
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It was right in front of him. How could he miss it??
 
taleofbluehalves said:
Joke really about 3ft off!! Still evens out in the end..... Oh hang on a minute...
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This'll be what Crappenberg thought and the instructions to his linos - "We gave Haringay Hotspurs a dodgy goal from a clear offside at The Lane. We better even things up a bit. I know - I'll give 'Arry a dodgy pen if I get the chance. Sterling looks a likely fall guy. Let's see if I can squeeze a 'handball' out of him!"
 
Dave Ewing's Back 'eader said:
Perhaps he thought it was 'marginal' and gave the attacker the benefit of the doubt!! Anything else is either gross incompetence or corruption.
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Nobody knows what goes on regarding referees instructions to linesmen. If they are giving their own interpretation of how they want offsides to be interpreted, this is wrong. To instruct a linesman not to allow any offside goals will cause him to favour the defending team, and we end up with what happened on Sunday. (I am not suggesting this happened by the way, only raising it as a possibility). If the referee allowed the linesmen to make their own objective decisions about offsides, then mistakes would even themselves out, instead of the same team always being favoured. On Saturday, had the linesman made an honest mistake on three occasions, we would have had two offsides against Aguero, and one fairly free run on goal. The outcome of the game could have been totally different.
 
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