Mateo Kovacic

[Larry Stranger]

Kovacic played as a deep-lying 8 and DM in these Spanish Supercup games. I think watching this it becomes fairly obvious why he's not a good solution. He struggles to make progressive passes and always looks to run into space. The guy is a fantastic powerful dribbler, but lacks intelligence to play deep and would be a very raw material for a Guardiola team. Even if someday he fullfills his talent and becomes a top player, IMO it will be in 8 position.

Jorginho is in a different league in terms of vision and intelligence.

I was just going to say the same thing. For me the problem with Kovacic is that he's a dribbler. He's really good at dribbling out of pressure. However I don't know if that's what Pep necessarily wants. Everything is about positioning and if Kovacic dribbles out of pressure up the pitch and loses the ball, he is already out of position and it leaves the rest of the team vulnerable. Also under a Liverpool type press you're surrounded by 3 men at times which is hard to beat even if you are one of the best dribblers in the world bar Messi. I think that's why Jorginho is the first option. He has better 1 touch passing that break a press in an instant without being out of position. If Kovacic can learn to pass before dribble then maybe he'll be alright.

 

[Andrew___K]

I was just going to say the same thing. For me the problem with Kovacic is that he's a dribbler. He's really good at dribbling out of pressure. However I don't know if that's what Pep necessarily wants. Everything is about positioning and if Kovacic dribbles out of pressure up the pitch and loses the ball, he is already out of position and it leaves the rest of the team vulnerable. Also under a Liverpool type press you're surrounded by 3 men at times which is hard to beat even if you are one of the best dribblers in the world bar Messi. I think that's why Jorginho is the first option. He has better 1 touch passing that break a press in an instant without being out of position. If Kovacic can learn to pass before dribble then maybe he'll be alright.

Good point. That's why dribbling is of no use in this position, you need someone to evade the press by one-touch passing, almost without moving at all. The ability to see a solution quickly and make a progressive pass is far more important than the talent to move up the pitch with the ball. What's needed is Busquets/Jorginho/Weigl (in his best form), not Kovacic/Ndombele/prime Gundogan.

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

Good point. That's why dribbling is of no use in this position, you need someone to evade the press by one-touch passing, almost without moving at all. The ability to see a solution quickly and make a progressive pass is far more important than the talent to move up the pitch with the ball. What's needed is Busquets/Jorginho/Weigl (in his best form), not Kovacic/Ndombele/prime Gundogan.

Andrew, so wouldnt make any sense having this guy as a plan B for Jorginho? as they play a completely different style? I'm guessing for the reasons you mentioned, we didnt go after Fred in the summer window, as he's a dribbler in the same mode as Kovacic....I've been reading the comments on this thread and it would seem Jorginho has a unique skill set and maybe shows why we should be willing to pay more to get him...

 

[razman]

good back up option and many even saying the better option . i haven't watched both enough for a judgement . Only think is , I fully trust pep and he seems very happy to stick to jorginho.

have to say if strictly on you tube compilation ( which is the only parameter i can go by) - kovacic looks slightly more impressive but again seems a better dribbler. but not necessarily required in that position. Again , will depend what pep is looking for .

 

[CityDreamer]

I for one think this is a smoke screen. Would be very surprised if we do any business with Perez et al. That being said, I think he will be a good complement to Ferna.

 

[razman]

I for one think this is a smoke screen. Would be very surprised if we do any business with Perez et al. That being said, I think he will be a good complement to Ferna.

why wouldn't we be doing any business with Perez? Perez seems to have very good relationship with Sheikh Mansour

 

[117 M34]

I for one think this is a smoke screen. Would be very surprised if we do any business with Perez et al. That being said, I think he will be a good complement to Ferna.

Danilo was bought from perez

 

[Andrew___K]

Andrew, so wouldnt make any sense having this guy as a plan B for Jorginho? as they play a completely different style? I'm guessing for the reasons you mentioned, we didnt go after Fred in the summer window, as he's a dribbler in the same mode as Kovacic....I've been reading the comments on this thread and it would seem Jorginho has a unique skill set and maybe shows why we should be willing to pay more to get him...

Jorginho's skillset is a very rare one, I don't know any readymade players that could be an alternative aside of those 3 I've mentioned. It's almost impossible to find a young player of this kind as such skillset is developed with specific coaching. No wonder that we're talking about proteges of Pep, Sarri and Tuchel.
Any other player would be a 'project signing' with different qualities to mould him in some way.

As for Kovacic rumours, it's obvious that they were leaked by the club. I don't think Kovacic is an actual target, not intelligent enough for a Pep team as I see it. I'd take Napoli's target Lucas Torreira over him. Or even Steven Nzonzi as a stopgap solution.

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

Jorginho's skillset is a very rare one, I don't know any readymade players that could be an alternative aside of those 3 I've mentioned. It's almost impossible to find a young player of this kind as such skillset is developed with specific coaching. No wonder that we're talking about proteges of Pep, Sarri and Tuchel.
Any other player would be a 'project signing' with different qualities to mould him in some way.

As for Kovacic rumours, it's obvious that they were leaked by the club. I don't think Kovacic is an actual target, not intelligent enough for a Pep team as I see it. I'd take Napoli's target Lucas Torreira over him. Or even Steven Nzonzi as a stopgap solution.

Cheers mate....I think you've just answered why Jorginho is worth alot more than what we currently offering!;)......walking away from such a ready-made player would seem like poor business!

 

[domalino]

Good point. That's why dribbling is of no use in this position, you need someone to evade the press by one-touch passing, almost without moving at all. The ability to see a solution quickly and make a progressive pass is far more important than the talent to move up the pitch with the ball. What's needed is Busquets/Jorginho/Weigl (in his best form), not Kovacic/Ndombele/prime Gundogan.

Dribbling is an incredibly useful skill in the #6 actually, in the same way it's very useful for the CB's. If you can have a deep player who can carry the ball past a defender than it creates a free man further up the pitch.

Also there's more than one way to avoid the press. First touch passing to get the ball away quickly is one of them, but Kovacic's ability to shield the ball, ride challenges and get out of tight corners means he can evade the press as well.

Teams like Liverpool don't throw 3 players at the person in possession, they almost always have 1, occasionally 2 defenders close down the player in possession while another 2 block off passing lanes. That's why if you have a dribbler like Kovacic, or Mousa Dembele is another example, they can beat 1 person and get you in behind the press.


They are 2 different methods to do the same thing. Pep wouldn't be looking at him if he didn't suit the role.

I would also say that YouTube compilations massively exaggerate how much he dribbles. He might go on 2 or 3 little runs per game, the rest of the time he's going to pass - he averages 75 passes per 90. Fernandinho averages 80, so there's not that great a difference.


Kovacic isn't like Jorginho, but he's not a million miles away from Fred, and he's pretty much got the agression and tackling Gundogan lacks in the position.

I reckon he might be a target for next summer that we're looking at early because of the Jorginho standoff.

 

[Delphacito]

Dribbling is an incredibly useful skill in the #6 actually, in the same way it's very useful for the CB's. If you can have a deep player who can carry the ball past a defender than it creates a free man further up the pitch.

Also there's more than one way to avoid the press. First touch passing to get the ball away quickly is one of them, but Kovacic's ability to shield the ball, ride challenges and get out of tight corners means he can evade the press as well.

Teams like Liverpool don't throw 3 players at the person in possession, they almost always have 1, occasionally 2 defenders close down the player in possession while another 2 block off passing lanes. That's why if you have a dribbler like Kovacic, or Mousa Dembele is another example, they can beat 1 person and get you in behind the press.


They are 2 different methods to do the same thing. Pep wouldn't be looking at him if he didn't suit the role.

I would also say that YouTube compilations massively exaggerate how much he dribbles. He might go on 2 or 3 little runs per game, the rest of the time he's going to pass - he averages 75 passes per 90. Fernandinho averages 80, so there's not that great a difference.


Kovacic isn't like Jorginho, but he's not a million miles away from Fred, and he's pretty much got the agression and tackling Gundogan lacks in the position.

I reckon he might be a target for next summer that we're looking at early because of the Jorginho standoff.

If we don’t get Kovacic now, we might never get him. With a new manager incoming, he might be given more chance to play next season.

 

[domalino]

If we don’t get Kovacic now, we might never get him. With a new manager incoming, he might be given more chance to play next season.

More likely he gets less. Zidane loved him, a new manager will probably use Isco when Modric isn't playing, rather than considering Isco as a forward to be rotated with Bale or Benzema.

 

[Delphacito]

More likely he gets less. Zidane loved him, a new manager will probably use Isco when Modric isn't playing, rather than considering Isco as a forward to be rotated with Bale or Benzema.

True but Modric will be 33 too by then. Kovacic will get more chances to play, at the very least in La Liga. They get to keep Modric fresh for the big games.

 

[01cravend]

Interesting links Kovacic and Lemina, two quite similar players. Both play styles to similar to Gundogan too but both can defend. Would happily take either as a replacement for Gundogan but not as a Jorginho alternative.

 

[Larry Stranger]

Dribbling is an incredibly useful skill in the #6 actually, in the same way it's very useful for the CB's. If you can have a deep player who can carry the ball past a defender than it creates a free man further up the pitch.

Also there's more than one way to avoid the press. First touch passing to get the ball away quickly is one of them, but Kovacic's ability to shield the ball, ride challenges and get out of tight corners means he can evade the press as well.

Teams like Liverpool don't throw 3 players at the person in possession, they almost always have 1, occasionally 2 defenders close down the player in possession while another 2 block off passing lanes. That's why if you have a dribbler like Kovacic, or Mousa Dembele is another example, they can beat 1 person and get you in behind the press.


They are 2 different methods to do the same thing. Pep wouldn't be looking at him if he didn't suit the role.

I would also say that YouTube compilations massively exaggerate how much he dribbles. He might go on 2 or 3 little runs per game, the rest of the time he's going to pass - he averages 75 passes per 90. Fernandinho averages 80, so there's not that great a difference.


Kovacic isn't like Jorginho, but he's not a million miles away from Fred, and he's pretty much got the agression and tackling Gundogan lacks in the position.

I reckon he might be a target for next summer that we're looking at early because of the Jorginho standoff.

Not quite correct. They do like to throw men at the person in possession.


I do agree with you that it's handy to have dribbling skills, but this is Pep. He has his famous 20 zones on the pitch. If you are dribbling out of a zone as a #6 it's unpredictable because you don't know where you'll end up. This will cut off your passing options as he likes to have 3 options available at all times. Your own teammates don't know where they should be to receive a pass from you and it will create a domino effect of the zones breaking down. I do think we need a dribbler. When I watch Hazard against Liverpool he dribbled until he got fouled which relieved the pressure. I just don't think Pep would go for it in a #6 position though.

 

[Andrew___K]

Not quite correct. They do like to throw men at the person in possession.


I do agree with you that it's handy to have dribbling skills, but this is Pep. He has his famous 20 zones on the pitch. If you are dribbling out of a zone as a #6 it's unpredictable because you don't know where you'll end up. This will cut off your passing options as he likes to have 3 options available at all times. Your own teammates don't know where they should be to receive a pass from you and it will create a domino effect of the zones breaking down. I do think we need a dribbler. When I watch Hazard against Liverpool he dribbled until he got fouled which relieved the pressure. I just don't think Pep would go for it in a #6 position though.

Correct. No wonder Pep wants to have a DM that moves the ball almost exclusively by passing:
"When players have huge attempted pass numbers it’s easy to be skeptical and assume they pass the ball with no real purpose, just moving it side to side. This isn’t the case with Jorginho, the vertical pass numbers hint towards this while ‘Progressive Pass’ numbers also show this – as can be seen in the tweet below.

His standing is impressive given his dribbling is almost non-existent.

Jorginho’s strengths seem to perfectly suit a Pep Guardiola team, while you’d imagine under the guidance of Guardiola his pass selection and positioning should be enhanced even further."
http://www.playedoffthepark.co.uk/window-shopping-jorginho-napoli-and-manchester-city/

 

[asaluttar]

Dribbling is an incredibly useful skill in the #6 actually, in the same way it's very useful for the CB's. If you can have a deep player who can carry the ball past a defender than it creates a free man further up the pitch.

Also there's more than one way to avoid the press. First touch passing to get the ball away quickly is one of them, but Kovacic's ability to shield the ball, ride challenges and get out of tight corners means he can evade the press as well.

Teams like Liverpool don't throw 3 players at the person in possession, they almost always have 1, occasionally 2 defenders close down the player in possession while another 2 block off passing lanes. That's why if you have a dribbler like Kovacic, or Mousa Dembele is another example, they can beat 1 person and get you in behind the press.


They are 2 different methods to do the same thing. Pep wouldn't be looking at him if he didn't suit the role.

I would also say that YouTube compilations massively exaggerate how much he dribbles. He might go on 2 or 3 little runs per game, the rest of the time he's going to pass - he averages 75 passes per 90. Fernandinho averages 80, so there's not that great a difference.


Kovacic isn't like Jorginho, but he's not a million miles away from Fred, and he's pretty much got the agression and tackling Gundogan lacks in the position.

I reckon he might be a target for next summer that we're looking at early because of the Jorginho standoff.

Great stuff, love reading football here. I never actually noticed so much about kovacevic even when watching his team, but I can recall those small things in his play now, especially the "little runs" you mention, so simple but effective at beating the press.

 

[shak]

I like Kovacic from what little I've seen but him being an alternative to Jorginho just seems weird. I trust Pep and both good signings but totally different.

Like finding out the price of fish and chips has gone up so you get chinese instead.

 

[domalino]

I do agree with you that it's handy to have dribbling skills, but this is Pep. He has his famous 20 zones on the pitch. If you are dribbling out of a zone as a #6 it's unpredictable because you don't know where you'll end up. This will cut off your passing options as he likes to have 3 options available at all times. Your own teammates don't know where they should be to receive a pass from you and it will create a domino effect of the zones breaking down. I do think we need a dribbler. When I watch Hazard against Liverpool he dribbled until he got fouled which relieved the pressure. I just don't think Pep would go for it in a #6 position though.

Sorry but if you think someone carrying the ball forwards is bad for Pep's 20 zone system then you don't understand it.

The whole point of the zonal system is that so players learn where to be in relation to the ball. If the ball goes to a certain position, the other 10 players know where to move so that passing lanes remain open, width is maintained, there's people near the ball to recover it. The whole system is a reference for players to deal with the ball moving.

The ball being carried forwards doesn't break the system down, it simply causes the system to work. A teammate sees you carry the ball forwards and you know where to move.

Pep also has gone for it in a 6 before, because Thiago does it plenty and Pep payed him as a #6 and Gundogan likes to carry the ball forwards in that position as well, and Pep obviously likes him as a pivot. Not to mention we wouldn't be looking at Kovacic - and given the source of the leaks is reliable it would be churlish to suggest we weren't - if Guardiola thought he couldn't play there.

 

[razman]

Is this a possibility....next few days will be interesting