Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

inbetween said:
How many Muslim countries live as secular states? Not a single one of them. All Muslim countries abide by Islamic law and for many of those countries there is no freedom of religion. Just for example atheists in Saudi Arabia are classed as terrorists and anyone who is not Sunni is essentially a second class citizen.

With this in mind why would anyone who is not Muslim want to absorb into a Muslim state? And finally on the flip side why would the Palestinians accept a single secular state on 'their' lands which is not Islamic?

A single state solution is impossible and almost insults to the fact that without Israel Jewish people do not have a self-determined homeland. If a single secular state is the only option then for Jews there is no difference between living in New Zealand vs whatever this new state is.
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Turkey, most North African countries are all nominally secular states there are few more as well
 
Eds said:
Ah different rules for the two sides in a war. Get it now. Hamas can do and say what they want, Israel can't.
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By jove I think you have actually got it. To an extent Israeli’s should be proud they are, but yes, it’s a bit shit for Israel. If Israel wants to fight a conventional war where it’s actions are not held to a much higher standard it should got after Iran.
 
BlueAnorak said:
Will they lose?
I think everyone would lose if that happened.
Isreal's presumed total of around 400 or so nuclear warheads says nuclear armagedon is the probable outcome if that happens.
That is why we in the west are so loathe to sort out Russian agression in Ukraine with their 6000 nuclear delivery weapons.
In fact, under your predicted "peaceful successor state" solution it would actually be devoid of Jews as they'd all be dead.
Just admit your solution is impossible and is indeed pure fantasy.
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They would never be allowed to launch them if it came to that. Russia hasn't used their nuclear weapons and if Israel started threatening it and they were at risk of being used or compromised it's more likely the superpower of the age would intervene and not to sure up Israel.

Interestingly the defunct apartheid regime in South Africa admitted that they developed nuclear weapons with the express purpose that they would use them to blackmail the west into intervening against an intervention by the Soviet Union. They then unilaterally disarmed after realising the dangers of that plan.

The solution that zionist Israel proposes is to murder Palestinians or drive them out of the land. For that is the way. If you want to avoid a retribution, the answer isn't more tit for tat it's resolution.

If Israel carries on it simply won't be safe for Jews to live in Israel. All of it's neighbours will hate it, and deservedly so. They are more likely to all be dead if they follow your path. And there probably wouldn't be much sympathy for refugees.
 
inbetween said:
How many Muslim countries live as secular states? Not a single one of them. All Muslim countries abide by Islamic law and for many of those countries there is no freedom of religion. Just for example atheists in Saudi Arabia are classed as terrorists and anyone who is not Sunni is essentially a second class citizen.

With this in mind why would anyone who is not Muslim want to absorb into a Muslim state? And finally on the flip side why would the Palestinians accept a single secular state on 'their' lands which is not Islamic?

A single state solution is impossible and almost insults to the fact that without Israel Jewish people do not have a self-determined homeland. If a single secular state is the only option then for Jews there is no difference between living in New Zealand vs whatever this new state is.
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As I say, a fantasy solution.
 
I see the Hamas leader walked out of an interview with the BBC in Qatar when asked about murdering Israeli citizenns.
Anyone who thinks Hamas are possible to deal with gas lost touch with reality.
Hamas are dedicated to Jihad and the genocide of Isreali Jews.
 
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Ducado said:
Turkey, most North African countries are all nominally secular states there are few more as well
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So are you arguing that the Palestinian cause within a single state would be to establish a non-Islamic country? Even with a two-state solution, would the new state of Palestine be a secular state?
 
inbetween said:
How many Muslim countries live as secular states? Not a single one of them. All Muslim countries abide by Islamic law and for many of those countries there is no freedom of religion. Just for example atheists in Saudi Arabia are classed as terrorists and anyone who is not Sunni is essentially a second class citizen.

With this in mind why would anyone who is not Muslim want to absorb into a Muslim state? And finally on the flip side why would the Palestinians accept a single secular state on 'their' lands which is not Islamic?

A single state solution is impossible and almost insults to the fact that without Israel Jewish people do not have a self-determined homeland. If a single secular state is the only option then for Jews there is no difference between living in New Zealand vs whatever this new state is.
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Afraid you are wrong. Plenty of majority Muslim countries that are secular.
I'll kick off with the 2 biggest. Indonesia and Turkey.
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
They would never be allowed to launch them if it came to that. Russia hasn't used their nuclear weapons and if Israel started threatening it and they were at risk of being used or compromised it's more likely the superpower of the age would intervene and not to sure up Israel.

Interestingly the defunct apartheid regime in South Africa admitted that they developed nuclear weapons with the express purpose that they would use them to blackmail the west into intervening against an intervention by the Soviet Union. They then unilaterally disarmed after realising the dangers of that plan.

The solution that zionist Israel proposes is to murder Palestinians or drive them out of the land. For that is the way. If you want to avoid a retribution, the answer isn't more tit for tat it's resolution.

If Israel carries on it simply won't be safe for Jews to live in Israel. All of it's neighbours will hate it, and deservedly so. They are more likely to all be dead if they follow your path. And there probably wouldn't be much sympathy for refugees.
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Never be allowed?
Isreal would only launch them if their was an existential threat to the Israeli state.
What you're saying is if Israel delivered it's nukes they would cease to exist.
That's pretty much a given under the circumstances of Israel using them.
A single secular state is pure fantasy, and you probably know it too.
 
Ducado said:
A one state solution would be the way out of it, but then Israel would no longer be a Jewish state, so it’s never mentioned, it’s a more practical solution
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The only possibility is a two state solution but for that to happen Hamas/Islamist extremists and the religious zionist settlers would need to be marginalised, and neither is happening any time soon. We need respected statesmen on both sides to make anything positive happen not corrupt geriatrics as we have right now.
 
robbieh said:
Afraid you are wrong. Plenty of majority Muslim countries that are secular.
I'll kick off with the 2 biggest. Indonesia and Turkey.
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Lol okay, my original point is obviously impossible to decipher for you guys and that's probably because it's true. There will never be a Palestinian secular state just as much as most Jewish people don't want one either.

And that's the single state solution dead, let's leave it at that then.
 
inbetween said:
So are you arguing that the Palestinian cause within a single state would be to establish a non-Islamic country? Even with a two-state solution, would the new state of Palestine be a secular state?
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I can't believe anyone would believe in all honesty and sincerity that a single state solution between Jews and Palestinians would be anything other than a bloodbath.

From what I have read on here the only solution would be to move Israel somewhere else, it's a nightmare.
 
BlueAnorak said:
I see the Hamas leader walked out of an interview with the BBC in Qatar when asked about murdering Israeli citizenns.
Anyone who thinks Hamas are possible to deal with gas lost touch with reality.
Hamas are dedicated to Jihad and the genocide of Isreali Jews.
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So how do you get rid of them?

I have not seen a single post that says Hamas is anything but a murderouse bunch of terrorists, but they don’t exist in a vacuum they are just symptomatic of the hopelessness of their situation

What most people are arguing is that by bombing the life out of Gaza may satisfy some blood lust, it’s completely counterproductive
 
inbetween said:
Lol okay, my original point is obviously impossible to decipher for you guys and that's probably because it's true. There will never be a Palestinian secular state just as much as most Jewish people don't want one either.

And that's the single state solution dead, let's leave it at that then.
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No, you stated something that was wrong and now you’re going around the house’s trying to make yourself right, there was nothing to decipher, just stop digging
 
BlueAnorak said:
Never be allowed?
Isreal would only launch them if their was an existential threat to the Israeli state.
What you're saying is if Israel delivered it's nukes they would cease to exist.
That's pretty much a given under the circumstances of Israel using them.
A single secular state is pure fantasy, and you probably know it too.
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Yes, I'm saying that a small country would never be allowed to drag the world into a nuclear war. They have no right to do so. So they would be neutralised by the superpower.

If the choice is nuclear war or them ceasing to be a Jewish country anymore, they cease to be a Jewish country.

At the current rate Israel is going it's a single secular state or collapse, attrocities commited against them and expulsion. Make peace embrace one of the solutions on the table or follow the path of destruction.
 
halfcenturyup said:
Genuine question, as I don't have a horse in this race at all. Do you think the Israelis would have stayed within their borders if they hadn't been attacked and gained land by "conquest"? Or is it just as likely that settlements would have expanded outside their borders and we would still be in the same mess?
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I would like to think so , what has happened as naturally would is due to being attacked governments become more right-wing ... its gone to far admittedly but I lived there when alot if palestians and israelis were able to coexist happily
 
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Ducado said:
No, you stated something that was wrong and now you’re going around the house’s trying to make yourself right, there was nothing to decipher, just stop digging
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My point is that people are trying to disassemble Israel into a secular state to solve the problem. But you are not solving the problem, you are creating something that nobody wants and telling both to stop killing each other and to just live with it.

The Palestinians want their own Islamic state, they do not want a secular state. Jewish people want their own Jewish state, they do not want a secular state.

What actually has this got to do with Israel? Do you think that Jewish people want to see Israel become a secular state? Of course they don't, they have a right to self-determination and a single secular state removes that right. Israel exists because of that and it will continue to exist.

I mention other Muslim states because they have their own right to self-determination however some on here are more inclined to protect that. Since when did anyone call for the reorganisation of Iran or Saudi Arabia to house Jewish people, the mere suggestion would actually be blasphemy in those countries! It's just ironic really.
 
BlueAnorak said:
Who the hell is going to put their troops at risk from extremists?
Pure fantasy.
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Hmm. Let us start with the USA,EU,GB, Russia..my word what are you talking about ?? Have you been hibernating for the last 50 years ?? Afghanistan,Iraq,Isis,Syria to name but a few. Can you explain who was fighting the extremsits in those countires please ?? We even fight them in our own countries.
Unfortunately posters like yourself are very adept at making disparaging remarks, with no positive attempts to think about a way forward. You simply make broad meaningless comments,but perhaps say something positive for once and do not knock people for actually thinking how to stop this situation.
 
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