Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

[The blue phantom]

Come on, give a response to what I was asking you.

But even you know deep down this will not work. All it will do is make it the biggest recruitment drive for future Hamas Terriost.

 

[The blue phantom]

Even now rather than admitting you are posting the same inane shit you have to try to to spin it as if I've purposely not pulled someone else doing the same thing with opposing views, indirectly you are proving the point as to why this conflict can never end because you and the opposing side could and never will never accept the other point of view of the other unfortunately.

I have no horse in this race so have no bias either way and it's utterly deplorable what is happening to Palestinians right now, I can't imagine being in that situation, why we still think fighting each other over land/religion/opposing politics in 2023 I will never be able to get my head around but until people can act like adults and actually start to understand the other this will go on for the next 100 years, most likely we will have managed to wipe the human race out anyway.

And that's all I've done. There's people on here who don't want a ceasefire and continue to back the Israelis to carry on Bombing as they are convinced thats the only way. Whereas I and many others want them to stop. Surely you should be pulling these folk up who are supporting the current onslaught from the IDF?

 

[Roachy]

But even you know deep down this will not work. All it will do is make it the biggest recruitment drive for future Hamas Terriost.

Just give some alternatives mate.

 

[Dax777]

:) Kudus for your analogies, but I am still not buying that you can blast Hamas out of existence. You can buy some time before they re-group, or worse, something far worse rises from the ashes, but that is no actual solution.

To quote my favorite living philosopher, "there are no solutions here, only tradeoffs." Nothing Israel does would appease Hamas. At some point folks need to understand this.

For Hamas it's not a land dispute. That's just the current pretext nor is it a concern for the lives of the Palestinian Arabs. That's just a 'good for public image in the West' posture. At its core it's an Ideological belief in an Islamic Caliphate. Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, their goals are not the same as the Palestinians. Even if they currently have a common foe.

This, the goal is not to blast Hamas out of existence. Rather out of effectiveness. By the way, many said similar about ISI in Iraq. And yet today they have been crushed out of effectiveness and any control. Same has to be done to Hamas.

 

[halfcenturyup]

To quote my favorite living philosopher, "there are no solutions here, only tradeoffs." Nothing Israel does would appease Hamas. At some point folks need to understand this.

For Hamas it's not a land dispute. That's just the current pretext nor is it a concern for the lives of the Palestinian Arabs. That's just a good for public image in the West. At its core it's an Ideological belief in an Islamic Caliphate. Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, their goals are not the same as the Palestinians. Even if they currently have a common foe.

The goal is not to blast Hamas out of existence. Rather out of effectiveness. By the way, many said similar about ISI in Iraq. And yet today they have been crushed out of effectiveness and any control. Same has to be done to Hamas.

Effectiveness can be rebuilt when there are more and more followers of an ideology. And more ruthless effectiveness as well. It's all fine unless and until something worse than IS is created instead with the same ideology, or, in this case something worse than Hamas, or, if we are lucky, Hamas just regroups. I suppose, if everyone is very lucky, what you are saying might just happen but, imo, it will be never ending unless the underlying causes are addressed, and that goes all the way to the US and Iran, the Arab States and, of course, Israel.

Just buying time at the cost of thousands of lives seems hugely callous.

Anyway, we don't have to agree on this. :)

 

[inbetween]

And that's all I've done. There's people on here who don't want a ceasefire and continue to back the Israelis to carry on Bombing as they are convinced thats the only way. Whereas I and many others want them to stop. Surely you should be pulling these folk up who are supporting the current onslaught from the IDF?

We all know that a call for ceasefire will come eventually because Hamas hasn't got an endless supply of arms. Is it acceptable to declare a ceasefire on the understanding that Hamas will just rearm and start again?

With any ceasefire all that will happen is Israel will surround the border and monitor everything that goes in and out. The usual people will call this apartheid however then in a few years the same cycle of violence will begin again. The usual people will once again call for a ceasefire. What's the point?

This is perhaps why Israel has decided to eliminate Hamas completely, or at least it's going to try. Gaza needs a calm and sensible regime that is capable of negotiating away from bullets and rockets, that's the only thing that will benefit Palestinians.

 

[Dax777]

Effectiveness can be rebuilt when there are more and more followers of an ideology. And more ruthless effectiveness as well. It's all fine unless and until something worse than IS is created instead with the same ideology, or, in this case something worse than Hamas, or, if we are lucky, Hamas just regroups. I suppose, if everyone is very lucky, what you are saying might just happen but, imo, it will be never ending unless the underlying causes are addressed, and that goes all the way to the US and Iran, the Arab States and, of course, Israel.

Just buying time at the cost of thousands of lives seems hugely callous.

Anyway, we don't have to agree on this. :)

Ok let me take one more stab at this :)

Here is a hypothetical for you: Suppose there is a large group of people (and growing) who believe the world should be run according to their faith beliefs and that group was willing to attempt to achieve its goals by any means necessary and against the wishes of other groups of people no matter what their beliefs were

How would you suggest one resolves this conflict?

 

[roubaixtuesday]

This is perhaps why Israel has decided to eliminate Hamas completely, or at least it's going to try. Gaza needs a calm and sensible regime that is capable of negotiating away from bullets and rockets, that's the only thing that will benefit Palestinians.

You think this is a potential outcome of the Israeli offensive?

That a population, already confined in a tiny space, having had a significant part of that utterly destroyed, losing thousands if their children, will install a calm and sensible regime under the oversight of those who killed their children?

Seems a little optimistic. To put it very, very mildly indeed.

 

[Vic]

The way it works in THIS country not abroad, foreigners can sort their own shit out in their own countries.

We in this country should strengthen the sentences for anti-Semitism to prevent the simmering under the surface bigots that see this as a chance.

That must be the silliest response on the thread. You advocated violence to deal with violence. But only in certain places.

I'm sure the IDF would love to meet Hamas on a battlefield well away from innocent people. Can you say the same for Hamas?

I was wrong. That's the silliest.

 

[halfcenturyup]

Just give some alternatives mate.

Can we put this one to bed.

Targeted strikes against Hamas commanders in Gaza, assassinations of the leaders in Qatar and Iran, and a grown up play towards US/ Iran reconciliation and Arab state/ Israel reconciliation to cut off funding. Oh, and a diplomatic solution to the question of a Palestinian state. You want to make Hamas less effective? Get rid of their leadership and cut off their funding.

(And while I am here, Israel should secure its riskiest borders rather than deploy forces to the West Bank. I still can't believe Hamas could do what they did.)

Strangle Hamas over a number of years instead of an insane attempt to "wipe them out" or (possibly) ethnically cleanse Gaza and make the Palestinians there someone else's problem.

There is always more than one course of action available, but the course chosen says the most about the people who chose it and what their objectives are.

 

[Roachy]

Can we put this one to bed.

Targeted strikes against Hamas commanders in Gaza, assassinations of the leaders in Qatar and Iran, and a grown up play towards US/ Iran reconciliation and Arab state/ Israel reconciliation to cut off funding. Oh, and a diplomatic solution to the question of a Palestinian state. You want to make Hamas less effective? Get rid of their leadership and cut off their funding.

(And while I am here, Israel should secure its riskiest borders rather than deploy forces to the West Bank. I still can't believe Hamas could do what they did.)

Strangle Hamas over a number of years instead of an insane attempt to "wipe them out" or (possibly) ethnically cleanse Gaza and make the Palestinians there someone else's problem.

There is always more than one course of action available, but the course chosen says the most about the people who chose it and what their objectives are.

Not a bad response actually. Leave it up this time unlike the one you removed yesterday .

 

[halfcenturyup]

I suppose so but that is the way all wars were settled to avoid innocent deaths. Man on man on the battlefield. Hamas have basically strapped their own babies to their chests and dared the Israeli's to shoot.

Which is the nature of assymetric warfare like this. Nevertheless, there are rules that need to be followed by the attacking army, especially in an assymetric conflict. The fact that one side doesn't follow the humanitarian law doesn't mean the attacking army is relieved of their responsibility for its actions.

 

[halfcenturyup]

Not a bad response actually. Leave it up this time unlike the one you removed yesterday .

Say what now? I haven't deleted any posts. Ever. As far as I am aware. If I make a mistake, I admit it. Doesn't happen much. :)

But can we stop asking what else can the Israelis do? Please?

 

[halfcenturyup]

Ok let me take one more stab at this :)

Here is a hypothetical for you: Suppose there is a large group of people (and growing) who believe the world should be run according to their faith beliefs and that group was willing to attempt to achieve its goals by any means necessary and against the wishes of other groups of people no matter what their beliefs were

How would you suggest one resolves this conflict?

I think I would have to learn a lot more about the situation before determining a response. Good game, though. Give me a few more details and I will see if I can be bothered formulating a response which doesn't involve blasting everyone to death. :)

 

[inbetween]

You think this is a potential outcome of the Israeli offensive?

That a population, already confined in a tiny space, having had a significant part of that utterly destroyed, losing thousands if their children, will install a calm and sensible regime under the oversight of those who killed their children?

Seems a little optimistic. To put it very, very mildly indeed.

What other end result will there be? Israel are not going to stop until Hamas are gone or at least the threat is gone and that seems pretty clear.

I wouldn't be surprised if this goes beyond Gaza by the way. Mossad are well known for their ability to make people disappear. I'm sure the Hamas leaders hiding out in various countries will be thinking twice about their protection.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Can we put this one to bed.

Targeted strikes against Hamas commanders in Gaza, assassinations of the leaders in Qatar and Iran, and a grown up play towards US/ Iran reconciliation and Arab state/ Israel reconciliation to cut off funding. Oh, and a diplomatic solution to the question of a Palestinian state. You want to make Hamas less effective? Get rid of their leadership and cut off their funding.

(And while I am here, Israel should secure its riskiest borders rather than deploy forces to the West Bank. I still can't believe Hamas could do what they did.)

Strangle Hamas over a number of years instead of an insane attempt to "wipe them out" or (possibly) ethnically cleanse Gaza and make the Palestinians there someone else's problem.

There is always more than one course of action available, but the course chosen says the most about the people who chose it and what their objectives are.

This assumption that using the sledgehammer approach is the only viable option is pitifully simplistic, just like it was after 9/11.

Israel has been suckered in by Hamas, who have got the exact response they wanted.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I wouldn't be surprised if this goes beyond Gaza by the way. Mossad are well known for their ability to make people disappear. I'm sure the Hamas leaders hiding out in various countries will be thinking twice about their protection.

This is far more likely to garner positive results than bombing the fuck out of Gaza.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Here’s one brief prediction of Israel’s plan. I happen to think Bibi was just waiting for the justification to do this.
Time will tell if he’s correct.

 

[Vialli98]

I suppose so but that is the way all wars were settled to avoid innocent deaths. Man on man on the battlefield. Hamas have basically strapped their own babies to their chests and dared the Israeli's to shoot.

That doesn't mean Israel should drop bombs indiscriminately and to hell with the consequences. If your house was being robbed, and the robber had already murdered your parents, and you called the police, and when they showed up the robber grabbed your missus and put a gun to her head, I'm sure you wouldn't say it was fine for the police to say 'we're going to shoot them both, the only way to stop him from doing this again is to shoot through your missus'.

You cannot put 7000 deaths at the feet of Hamas as if Israel has no agency. Hamas clearly won't come out of their tunnels, so the answer cannot be to keep dropping thousands of bombs until their isn't a single soul left alive in Gaza. That is unconscionable. That makes Israel the bad guys too, but it's obvious they don't care about perception because they will always be protected by the important nations in the west, namely the US. So they get to continue slaughtering thousands of innocent people with impunity and if anyone ever dares to criticise them, they'll just invoke Oct 7 and carry on where they left off.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

This assumption that using the sledgehammer approach is the only viable option is pitifully simplistic, just like it was after 9/11.

Israel has been suckered in by Hamas, who have got the exact response they wanted.

As I said a couple of weeks back.
Who’s playing who?