Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

Dax777 said:
To quote my favorite living philosopher, "there are no solutions here, only tradeoffs." Nothing Israel does would appease Hamas. At some point folks need to understand this.

For Hamas it's not a land dispute. That's just the current pretext nor is it a concern for the lives of the Palestinian Arabs. That's just a 'good for public image in the West' posture. At its core it's an Ideological belief in an Islamic Caliphate. Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, their goals are not the same as the Palestinians. Even if they currently have a common foe.

This, the goal is not to blast Hamas out of existence. Rather out of effectiveness. By the way, many said similar about ISI in Iraq. And yet today they have been crushed out of effectiveness and any control. Same has to be done to Hamas.
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Yes but at the cost of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi lives. That is not some strategic achievement to be proud of. Those are sick and repulsive war crimes and those who perpetuated them deserve to be dragged in front of the Hague.
 
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halfcenturyup said:
Say what now? I haven't deleted any posts. Ever. As far as I am aware. If I make a mistake, I admit it. Doesn't happen much. :)

But can we stop asking what else can the Israelis do? Please?
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You don't have to respond on someone else's behalf friend. Seeking alternative views off different posters is what this forum is all about. At the moment you're presenting your opinion, but that's all it is.
 
inbetween said:
What other end result will there be? Israel are not going to stop until Hamas are gone or at least the threat is gone and that seems pretty clear.

I wouldn't be surprised if this goes beyond Gaza by the way. Mossad are well known for their ability to make people disappear. I'm sure the Hamas leaders hiding out in various countries will be thinking twice about their protection.
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Other options include, but are not limited to:

1. The Israeli actions amount to a genocide against the Gazans, killing hundreds of thousands through violence, disease and starvation.

2. The violence being perpetrated against Gaza cascades through generations, emboldening and facilitating Palestinian guerilla war and terrorism against Israel and its finance by outside actors.

3. Israel occupies Gaza for a generation before eventually being exhausted and retreating once again.

4. Israel uses this as an excuse to further drive Palestinians from the West Bank (this seems to be happening already) driving Hamas style violence from there too.

Lots of other bad outcomes are also possible, including a humiliation of Israeli forces by Hamas in urban warfare.

I think the idea that any sort of clean military victory followed by peace is about the least likely of these, much as it would be desirable to rid the world of the murderous attackers of 7th october.
 
Vialli98 said:
That doesn't mean Israel should drop bombs indiscriminately and to hell with the consequences. If your house was being robbed, and the robber had already murdered your parents, and you called the police, and when they showed up the robber grabbed your missus and put a gun to her head, I'm sure you wouldn't say it was fine for the police to say 'we're going to shoot them both, the only way to stop him from doing this again is to shoot through your missus'.

You cannot put 7000 deaths at the feet of Hamas as if Israel has no agency. Hamas clearly won't come out of their tunnels, so the answer cannot be to keep dropping thousands of bombs until their isn't a single soul left alive in Gaza. That is unconscionable. That makes Israel the bad guys too, but it's obvious they don't care about perception because they will always be protected by the important nations in the west, namely the US. So they get to continue slaughtering thousands of innocent people with impunity and if anyone ever dares to criticise them, they'll just invoke Oct 7 and carry on where they left off.
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I fully understand you are feeling for all those innocent victims, as I do. But you don't want to talk about the other side of the story where Israel, for all their history, have to defend their sovereign state.

That's the dilemma. But both sides of the discussion have a right to exist, the concern of individual life AND the level of national existence.

I'd like to see your view from BOTH perspectives and the respective proposals.
Actually this goes for all posters to stop their one-sided Kindergarten level tit for tat.
 
These Likud people are deranged.

www.dw.com

Israel-Hamas war: UN chief 'deeply alarmed' by escalation – DW – 11/01/2023

UN chief Antonio Guterres said he was "dismayed" by reports that two-thirds of people killed in Gaza were women and children. Meanwhile, Yemen's Houthi rebels have pledged to continue attacking Israel. DW has the latest.
www.dw.com www.dw.com

Another thing I keep noticing with the Israeli politicians doing these kind of stunts is how often they came to prominence objecting to the peace process and Oslo accords. They aren’t interested in peace or a 2 state solution.
 
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The prime minister is right that no one had given him an early warning or shown him signs about Hamas' intention to launch a war on October 7. But Hamas does not operate in a vacuum, and this attack did not emerge out of nowhere.

Now what would be the response if a gentile said "Hamas does not operate in a vacuum"?


"Every paradigm is good for its own time. A good strategist asks every day whether his strategy is still valid and Netanyahu didn't do that," a former general says.

Hamas delenda est
 
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St.Pauli support said:
I fully understand you are feeling for all those innocent victims, as I do. But you don't want to talk about the other side of the story where Israel, for all their history, have to defend their sovereign state.

That's the dilemma. But both sides of the discussion have a right to exist, the concern of individual life AND the level of national existence.

I'd like to see your view from BOTH perspectives and the respective proposals.
Actually this goes for all posters to stop their one-sided Kindergarten level tit for tat.
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I honestly do. I was shocked and sickened to the core when I saw what Hamas did on Oct 7, and I totally and completely agree with the bolded. Israel's right to exist cannot be questioned.

The problem is since Oct 7 it's been a never ending, non-stop slaughter of innocent people, most of them little children with the death toll going on 8-9 times of Oct 7 and it is still going on as we speak with thousands more Palestinians likely to be murdered in the coming days and weeks. I don't know what Israeli perspective I should consider in the midst of the death and destruction of Gaza.

I don't think this is an even conflict. IDF is a top 10 military in the world with the financial and material backing of the biggest and strongest military power in the history of the world. The death toll going back decades is so heavily one-sided it's actually shocking and that is before we get to what the IDF and the illegal settlers are doing in the West Bank, Palestinian death toll now stands at nearly 80 in the last 3 weeks and there is no Hamas to blame there.
 
Vialli98 said:
Yes but at the cost of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi lives. That is not some strategic achievement to be proud of.
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No one said anything about being proud. Just a basic realization that there are no cute easy solutions to the problem. But too many however lamented the current conditions at the time and postulated that ISI could not be curtailed. And that attempting to neutralize ISI will only serve as recruitment drive for them.

We now know without a doubt that those claims are wrong. Decimating ISI didn't serve as a recruitment tool, it simply weakened them and made them unattractive.

It turns out humans don't like losing organizations no matter their ideology.




Vialli98 said:
Those are sick and repulsive war crimes and those who perpetuated them deserve to be dragged in front of the Hague.
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Yes, ISI was sick and commiting war crimes I agree. But they don't recognize or subscribe to international law. They couldn't care less about it. They respond to a higher power.

And there in lies a part of the problem. The other problem is that too many in the West pretend they have some magic solutions that would appease the ideological types that no one else had thought of before. But they don't.
 
Dax777 said:
No one said anything about being proud. Just a basic realization that there are no cute easy solutions to the problem. But too many however lamented the current conditions at the time and postulated that ISI could not be curtailed. And that attempting to neutralize ISI will only serve as recruitment drive for them.

We now know without a doubt that those claims are wrong. Decimating ISI didn't serve as a recruitment tool, it simply weakened them and made them unattractive.

It turns out humans don't like losing organizations no matter their ideology.
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Iraq was an illegal war. You cannot wipe out hundred of thousands of innocent lives in the name of fighting a terrorist group and then claim some kind of victory. That makes America and their allies the terrorists. It may have been successful in rendering a terrorist group ineffective but the path they took to achieve that goal included the death of over 1 million people renders that everything they say they achieved an abject failure.

Dax777 said:
Yes, ISI was sick and commiting war crimes I agree. But they don't recognize or subscribe to international law. They couldn't care less about it. They respond to a higher power.

And there in lies a part of the problem. The other problem is that too many in the West pretend they have some magic solutions that would appease the ideological types that no one else had thought of before. But they don't.
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I was saying it was America committing the sick and repulsive war crimes in Iraq and all the American and European decision makers who had a hand in that atrocious illegal way should be dragged in front of the Hague.
 
Palerider said:
It's frightening isn't it that an organisation whose only aim seems to be genocide has so much worldwide support. Sick.
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This post shows that what you consider the worldwide support. In your view, the world is essentially the west or western countries with a few others like India who do not like Muslims.

Also, those countries are not supporting Israel because they think Israel is doing the right thing, they are doing it because they have mutual benefits.
 
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Roachy said:
You don't have to respond on someone else's behalf friend. Seeking alternative views off different posters is what this forum is all about. At the moment you're presenting your opinion, but that's all it is.
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It's not an opinion that there was more than one response available to the situation for the Israelis. It's a fact.

I do have opinions about why they chose this particular course of action, and when I expound them I will say it's an opinion.
 
Vialli98 said:
That doesn't mean Israel should drop bombs indiscriminately and to hell with the consequences. If your house was being robbed, and the robber had already murdered your parents, and you called the police, and when they showed up the robber grabbed your missus and put a gun to her head, I'm sure you wouldn't say it was fine for the police to say 'we're going to shoot them both, the only way to stop him from doing this again is to shoot through your missus'.
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It's a good scenario but I don't think it's accurate. Hamas need to be stopped because if they are not stopped they will kill again. So what if the killer has sworn to kill all your family, has already killed 2 of your 4 kids and is using your wife as a shield as he moves towards another bedroom containing your other two kids? Do you take the shot at the killer and hope your wife survives or let him enter your childrens bedroom?
 
Palerider said:
Why don't Hamas surrender and end all the suffering they have caused?
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Why don't Israel give in to terror?

And I don't know if you have had time stop posting on here and check the news reports, but it is actually Israel that is dropping the bombs and causing the suffering in Gaza, not Hamas, so stop stop talking shite.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
Here’s one brief prediction of Israel’s plan. I happen to think Bibi was just waiting for the justification to do this.
Time will tell if he’s correct.
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Referring to netanyahu as bibi? You got pet names for all of the right wing tyrant leaders? I think most the world has already condemned Israels actions don't know what your waiting for!
 
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