Middle East Conflict

Alan Harper's Tash said:
Given that this is your stance, how can you be so firmly one one side?

I don’t post much in here as my knowledge of the nuance isn’t great.

It just seems that both sides want to kill as many as possible and that can’t be right.
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I’m on the side of a sovereign state defending itself and its citizens from a terrorist organisation and its attack that killed 1400.

Normally, 99% would be in favour and it would be tomorrows chip paper but Israel are involved and Palestinians are involved and for many it becomes an ideological battle that has to be won.

Peace is what has to happen. A viable 2 state solution is what has to happen and both Hamas and the Netanyahu right wing governments need to cease to exist and more moderate leaderships be in place to make the above a realistic goal.

Unfortunately, we are not there right now, attack was carried out by Hamas and Israel has declared war and won’t stop until they are told to stop by the USA.

I’ve stated that a release of the hostages would imo bring enough pressure from allies and the USA to bring about a ceasefire from Israel and one hopefully Hamas would stick to and from there, talks and a resolution but it’s years away if at all possible and so many changes are needed for it to have a realistic chance of working.

Hopefully it all stops asap and innocent civilians all over the region can be saved but I’m not confident right now.
 
blueinsa said:
I’m on the side of a sovereign state defending itself and its citizens from a terrorist organisation and its attack that killed 1400.

Normally, 99% would be in favour and it would be tomorrows chip paper but Israel are involved and Palestinians are involved and for many it becomes an ideological battle that has to be won.

Peace is what has to happen. A viable 2 state solution is what has to happen and both Hamas and the Netanyahu right wing governments need to cease to exist and more moderate leaderships be in place to make the above a realistic goal.

Unfortunately, we are not there right now, attack was carried out by Hamas and Israel has declared war and won’t stop until they are told to stop by the USA.

I’ve stated that a release of the hostages would imo bring enough pressure from allies and the USA to bring about a ceasefire from Israel and one hopefully Hamas would stick to and from there, talks and a resolution but it’s years away if at all possible and so many changes are needed for it to have a realistic chance of working.

Hopefully it all stops asap and innocent civilians all over the region can be saved but I’m not confident right now.
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nicely put.
one genuine Q...Where would you go if the hostages were already dead?
 
blueinsa said:
I’m on the side of a sovereign state defending itself and its citizens from a terrorist organisation and its attack that killed 1400.

Normally, 99% would be in favour and it would be tomorrows chip paper but Israel are involved and Palestinians are involved and for many it becomes an ideological battle that has to be won.

Peace is what has to happen. A viable 2 state solution is what has to happen and both Hamas and the Netanyahu right wing governments need to cease to exist and more moderate leaderships be in place to make the above a realistic goal.

Unfortunately, we are not there right now, attack was carried out by Hamas and Israel has declared war and won’t stop until they are told to stop by the USA.

I’ve stated that a release of the hostages would imo bring enough pressure from allies and the USA to bring about a ceasefire from Israel and one hopefully Hamas would stick to and from there, talks and a resolution but it’s years away if at all possible and so many changes are needed for it to have a realistic chance of working.

Hopefully it all stops asap and innocent civilians all over the region can be saved but I’m not confident right now.
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It's shocking how little support the calls for hostages release and a cease fire got on here
 
blueinsa said:
I’m on the side of a sovereign state defending itself and its citizens from a terrorist organisation and its attack that killed 1400.
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You might want to look up the word "defending" because what Israel are doing right now cannot possibly be considered as defending itself.

In common law - or indeed any law I think - defence has to be proportional. You cannot reasonably defend yourself against a kid with a pea shooter by shooting him with an AK47. Let alone shooting his mum, dad, sisters and brothers as well.
 
meeesh said:
Reading the comments and posts on this thread........no wonder it's been brought to the streets of the UK, wow, just wow, opinions that are not needed in this country, it's as simple as that isn't it?
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It's a global issue why would it not be on the streets of the UK? The situation of Palestine is directly linked to the British empire so I would say it should be spoke about in this country
 
blueinsa said:
I’m on the side of a sovereign state defending itself and its citizens from a terrorist organisation and its attack that killed 1400.

Normally, 99% would be in favour and it would be tomorrows chip paper but Israel are involved and Palestinians are involved and for many it becomes an ideological battle that has to be won.

Peace is what has to happen. A viable 2 state solution is what has to happen and both Hamas and the Netanyahu right wing governments need to cease to exist and more moderate leaderships be in place to make the above a realistic goal.

Unfortunately, we are not there right now, attack was carried out by Hamas and Israel has declared war and won’t stop until they are told to stop by the USA.

I’ve stated that a release of the hostages would imo bring enough pressure from allies and the USA to bring about a ceasefire from Israel and one hopefully Hamas would stick to and from there, talks and a resolution but it’s years away if at all possible and so many changes are needed for it to have a realistic chance of working.

Hopefully it all stops asap and innocent civilians all over the region can be saved but I’m not confident right now.
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And I understand that viewpoint, but given that both sides are lying, there has to be some doubt to what Israel are doing.

It seems more like retribution than strategy to me.

A sovereign state should also be held to account more than a terrorist cell.

Anyone associated with Hamas deserves what they get, but I don’t see quasi-carpet bombing as the solution.
 
ted the grass said:
nicely put.
one genuine Q...Where would you go if the hostages were already dead?
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No idea is the answer. Look, Israel is being allowed to extract its retribution here, horrible phrase to use I know but it’s the truth but at some point and it’s growing ever closer they are going to get told no fucking more and they will do as they are told.

Let’s hope it’s soon. Real soon.

Honestly, I don’t hold out much hope for the majority of the hostages if I’m being honest.
 
blueinsa said:
No idea is the answer. Look, Israel is being allowed to extract its pound of flesh here, horrible phrase to use I know but it’s the truth but at some point and it’s growing ever closer they are going to get told no fucking more and they will do as they are told.

Let’s hope it’s soon. Real soon.

Honestly, I don’t hold out much hope for the majority of the hostages if I’m being honest.
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careful with 'pound of flesh' mate...wasn't that Shylock the jewish moneylender in The Merchant of Venice?
 
Chippy_boy said:
You might want to look up the word "defending" because what Israel are doing right now cannot possibly be considered as defending itself.

In common law - or indeed any law I think - defence has to be proportional. You cannot reasonably defend yourself against a kid with a pea shooter by shooting him with an AK47. Let alone shooting his mum, dad, sisters and brothers as well.
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I don’t need to look up anything. I’m a poster on Bluemoon. My opinion has zero bearing on what is happening or will happen.

All I offer is an opinion of how I see the situation as it stands and where it might end up.

If I was important enough I’d be sorting it out and not selling car parts this afternoon.
 
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M16 citeh said:
It's a global issue why would it not be on the streets of the UK? The situation of Palestine is directly linked to the British empire so I would say it should be spoke about in this country
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It's 2023, direct link went years ago, just like India, so we have to endure all responsibilities in our country do we for ever and ever?

When many couldn't point to Gaza on a map, never mind anything else.
 
Chippy_boy said:
You might want to look up the word "defending" because what Israel are doing right now cannot possibly be considered as defending itself.

In common law - or indeed any law I think - defence has to be proportional. You cannot reasonably defend yourself against a kid with a pea shooter by shooting him with an AK47. Let alone shooting his mum, dad, sisters and brothers as well.
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Surely the intention of the Israelis is to kill Hamas? Now Hamas are basically strapping babies to their fronts and daring the Israelis to shoot knowing the outrage this would cause if they do shoot. What would you do if someone was coming to kill your family with a baby strapped to them? Let them kill your family or shoot knowing for certain that the innocent baby will die? So come on, what would you do? Kill a baby or let your family be killed?
 
The blue phantom said:
Would you have the hostages found at the expense of, Let's say 50'000 Palestinian lives? We're already well over 10'000 with nearly half of those.Children.
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Too many have been killed, one innocent life is too many but be careful in throwing around numbers that are coming from Hamas.

Both sides will tell you what they think their supporters want to hear right now.
 
Palerider said:
Surely the intention of the Israelis is to kill Hamas? Now Hamas are basically strapping babies to their fronts and daring the Israelis to shoot knowing the outrage this would cause if they do shoot. What would you do if someone was coming to kill your family with a baby strapped to them? Let them kill your family or shoot knowing for certain that the innocent baby will die? So come on, what would you do? Kill a baby or let your family be killed?
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I think that's a really poor analogy because you are painting a picture of a small loss (albeit a baby) for a large gain, i.e. multiple lives saved, whereas what we are seeing in Gaza is the opposite. 10,000 dead and counting is it now? How many dead is acceptable to you? 20,000? 100,000? 1m?

I'll give you a MUCH better analogy - as I have posted on here previously. A madman with a gun shoots a load of innocent people and then barricades himself into an empty property with a couple of hostages. Do the police say "fuck it let's blow the house up and sod the hostages"? No, they do not.
 
M16 citeh said:
It's a global issue why would it not be on the streets of the UK? The situation of Palestine is directly linked to the British empire so I would say it should be spoke about in this country
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Long and proud tradition of protest and solidarity in this country going back to Peterloo so agree, it's inevitable people will talk about it. Plus the govt and Tory press' stance is making it worse because people feel as soon as they express sympathy with Palestinians they get lumped in with anti-Semites and terror sympathisers so taking to the street becomes the way to get heard.

And govt's stance is directly linked to the fact that Israel is in large part a British creation... Going all the way back 1917 with the Balfour Declaration as has prob already been said on the thread. Govt back then wanted a sphere of influence in the ME and the support of the international Jewish community in WW1 so proposed a Jewish state in the region.

A noble project considering the history of Jewish persecution in Europe. But they didn't seek the consent of locals, the wording of the commitment was woolly and we didn't safeguard the rights of locals. It's been a mess ever since but one the old (British) and present-day (US) empires still have a stake in because Israel was created for geopolitical reasons as well as religious and humanitarian ones.
 
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