Middle East Conflict

BlueAnorak said:
Yes, I see it.
But Israel sees itself (way over 80% of the jewish population) as fighting a war for it's very existence. If Hezbollah joins in they will fight them too as they will see it as confirmation of it as a war for the existence of Israel.
Enemies of Israel will probably be in Rage mode too as a result of Israels OTT attacks that caught so many civilians as "collateral damage" (another horrible phrase).
These attacks aren't helping Isreal's friends defend their actions but at the moment I think that is the last thing on the IDF's agenda at the moment.
Rage is difficult to calm.
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Fair enough.

The thing is: Objectively, this is not a fight for theil existence of Israel. I can understand why the Israelis may think that given the history (long in terms of oppression of Jewish people, and shorter in terms of conflict over Israel) and the recent attack, but Israel isn't going to be wiped off the map, and Hamas, even with Hezbollah, aren't "killing every single Jew" or whatever they may say in their manifesto. It just isn't going to happen. So, to me as a neutral, for Israel to react as if it is does not validate in any way what they are doing. And "rage" isn't an acceptable motivation for a professional army, btw, no matter what the general population feel.

Nor do I accept for one moment, as a neutral, the argument from the Palestinian side that what happened last month was part of a resistance movement. There are ways to resist without the acts of barbarism carried out. Personally, I suspect that all the Hamas fighters involved in that attack expected to die within 30 minutes and were motivated by their own "rage", as you put it. The question Israel should be asking itself is why they didn't. But, back to my point, the difference in my eyes is that Hamas isn't a professional army and, I imagine, deliberately uses "rage" from the Palestinians to motivate them into near suicidal acts. And there must be a lot of real rage to tap into, with more being created with every passing day.

Anyway, that's my personal view on existential threats and rage as a justification for conflict. As a neutral.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
What about the other option.
That niggling doubt that there isn’t an exit strategy and there won’t be 2 million people to cater for because they’ll be cleansed from the land and any rebuilding will be done for new settlers eventually, but will probably never happen because of the WW3 that just started.

It’s just another option.
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That's the elephant in the room isn't it?

You can't look at what is happening in the West Bank and tell anyone that is because of an existential threat to Israel, or rage about Palestinian "resistance". It's clearly about land and so it's not unreasonable to ask if they will have the same approach to Gaza.

And then what do they do with 3 million Palestinians in the WB, and 2 million in Gaza. No way they want them in a greater Israel.

Watch this space, I think.
 
Ducado said:
They have been told in no uncertain terms that this is line they can’t cross as much as they would like too
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Publicly yes, and for regional consumption, I imagine, to keep a little credibility with Arab states and global opinion.

It's a bit naive, imo, to assume the US aren't saying something else in private given they have done, and are doing, absolutely nothing about what is happening in the WB.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Humanity peaked in 2019. Think it’s now on a downward spiral. As resources become more scarce,it’s only going to get worse. Basically, because humans are cunts.

No offence intended to any humans.

At least I got to see City win the treble. Thank you Universe!
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Hooray, I finally have found someone else who thinks all people are cunts beneath a thin veneer of civility. Take that away for whatever reason and you have Israel/ Palestine, Russia/ Ukraine ...... or Bluemoon, I suppose. :)
 
halfcenturyup said:
Fair enough.

The thing is: Objectively, this is not a fight for theil existence of Israel. I can understand why the Israelis may think that given the history (long in terms of oppression of Jewish people, and shorter in terms of conflict over Israel) and the recent attack, but Israel isn't going to be wiped off the map, and Hamas, even with Hezbollah, aren't "killing every single Jew" or whatever they may say in their manifesto. It just isn't going to happen. So, to me as a neutral, for Israel to react as if it is does not validate in any way what they are doing. And "rage" isn't an acceptable motivation for a professional army, btw, no matter what the general population feel.
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Are they a professional army btw, or are most of them a bunch of conscripts?
 
I'm With Stupid said:
Are they a professional army btw, or are most of them a bunch of conscripts?
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I guess you could call the ones doing the damage a professional army, certainly the ones making the decisions.

Edit: Sorry for hogging the thead, it's just that, when I wake up, I respond to anything that tickles my fancy. Not trying to carpet bomb the thread so apologies if any of you feel like collateral damage.
 
Just listening to Radio 5 Live. A BBC journalist embedded with an Israeli army unit in Gaza reports that the level of destructions means that Nortuern Gaza is now virtually inhabitable. Its unlikely civilians will be able to return there:
 
halfcenturyup said:
Publicly yes, and for regional consumption, I imagine, to keep a little credibility with Arab states and global opinion.

It's a bit naive, imo, to assume the US aren't saying something else in private given they have done, and are doing, absolutely nothing about what is happening in the WB.
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But it would further harm American strategic interests in the region if they’ve not been harmed enough

Plus the basic fact is that no country is willing to take on millions of refugees or expelled people, it’s a wet dream of the Israeli far right that’s about all
 
BayernMan said:
Are cooler headers rising in Washington?





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More like they are panicking, probably what is occurring on the ground is not what the Israelis said would occur? Unfortunately it won’t be the first time American trust has been betrayed meanwhile the $14 billion dollars had not left America, which is interesting because Israel can’t afford this level of expenditure for that long, I wonder if there is some carrot and stick going on ?
 
Ducado said:
But it would further harm American strategic interests in the region if they’ve not been harmed enough

Plus the basic fact is that no country is willing to take on millions of refugees or expelled people, it’s a wet dream of the Israeli far right that’s about all
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I understand what you are saying, but I prefer to judge people by what they do, rather than what they say.

So, to me, for example, Hamas is a terrorist organisation with limited capability, not an existential threat to Israel.

The Israelis are bombing Gaza indiscriminately without due attention to the fate of civilians, they aren't carrying out precision, targeted bombings.

And the US is doing nothing about the creeping occupation, and presumably eventual annexation, of the West Bank, so I see no reason, when push comes to shove, that they will stand up to Israel when it becomes clear they want to do the same in Gaza.

Not trying to be clever here, or some sort of supreme military or political strategist, just saying what I have seen with my own eyes the last 20 years.
 
grunge said:
A drone being downed will unlikely warrant a response. The attacked on bases got a bare minimum response too so they are holding back.

But as for the highlighted part. International water is exactly that. Everyone has the right to be there.
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It was off the coast of Yemen. I suspect a Yemeni drone would not be flying off the coast of Boston.
 
As many have mentioned the governments of neighbouring Arab countries couldn't give jack shit about the Palestinians. But just like in the UK the general public are not fooled by their leaders.
And the wider Arab/Moslem world will want serious redress. If the US and Israel don't fund a marshall type plan then we will be revisiting this again in a few years.
 
halfcenturyup said:
I understand what you are saying, but I prefer to judge people by what they do, rather than what they say.

So, to me, for example, Hamas is a terrorist organisation with limited capability, not an existential threat to Israel.

The Israelis are bombing Gaza indiscriminately without due attention to the fate of civilians, they aren't carrying out precision, targeted bombings.

And the US is doing nothing about the creeping occupation, and presumably eventual annexation, of the West Bank, so I see no reason, when push comes to shove, that they will stand up to Israel when it becomes clear they want to do the same in Gaza.

Not trying to be clever here, or some sort of supreme military or political strategist, just saying what I have seen with my own eyes the last 20 years.
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The economic factors are against this the $14 billion dollar aid has not arrived it’s been held up by arcane issues in Washington, although it does not seem that way but Israel has to function economically as well as politically, they can’t afford this level of expenditure for the long term, it’s a country that has suffered from hyperinflation before
 
Ducado said:
The economic factors are against this the $14 billion dollar aid has not arrived it’s been held up by arcane issues in Washington, although it does not seem that way but Israel has to function economically as well as politically, they can’t afford this level of expenditure for the long term, it’s a country that has suffered from hyperinflation before
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Well, possibly. I may be an old cynic, but I am guessing they will get their money whatever they do. Especially with an election coming up. I imagine Netanyahu guesses this as well. I suppose we will see.
 
dublinblue12 said:
They have been known to, but I think it's 'frowned upon' now, however what's does one more war crime matter when you have shown blatant disregard for International laws and have gotten away with so many in the past month
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Just for balance. It was a month that started with the Palestinians killing 1400 Israelis. That also is against International Law.
 
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