Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

[inchy14]

Why did Hamas start it then?
Any nation that fights a war with an arm tied behind its back is looking for to many casualties of it's own.
Hamas do seem to have got the war of annihilation they craved though.

This has been going on long before Hamas were formed but you already know that.


As an aside, are there any ex military members in here who think Israel have gone too far here and that the bombing of innocent civilians is a step too far? Seems to me that all the ex servicemen seem to think they’ve a right to do what they want and keep using war as an excuse to accept anything.

 

[BlueAnorak]

Same could be said for Netanyahu. For more than 20 years he's opposed a 2 state solution. If you keep kicking people, eventually they'll kick back. What did Israel expect? Isn't 70 years enough?

Not going to do him any good at the ballot box though is it.

 

[BlueAnorak]

So this whole thing started on October 7th then? Very selective history...

What wonderful Whataboutary.
Well Israel certainly wouldn't have invaded if that atrocity hadn't happened. Poking a stick in a beehive really isn't a good idea.

 

[inchy14]

Might be Baileys now, seeing as though Christmas seems to have started.

I’ve just been for both after a long week in work. Might drink myself into oblivion lol.

 

[BlueAnorak]

Stop the indiscriminate bombing. United Nations said it perfectly. War crimes are being committed. The bombing of apartment blocks with hundreds of people in them is not proportionate. The bombing of hospitals, schools and universities is proportionate. The entire infrastructure of the country and the death of over 11,000, half of which are children cannot be justified. This isn't a war, this is a destruction of a people.

I doubt it is indiscriminate. The casualties would be much much higher if it was.

 

[BlueAnorak]

From what I've read Israel/Mosaad has heavily infiltrated Hamas and have plenty of informants on the inside, some very highly placed within the organisation. They aren't entirely reliant eavesdropping technology.

They aren't but as I understand it it was planed by Hamas "ultras" in complete secrecy and most of those who took part only got to know when the operation actually started.

 

[halfcenturyup]

You didn’t even try to answer the question.

Oh, sorry. You asked "Why did Hamas start it then?"

If by "it" you mean the conflict, they didn't, of course.

If by "it" you mean this particular phase of the conflict, I can think of many reasons, but the most likely is that Iran wanted, firstly, to give Israel a bloody nose and two, to scupper any Israel reconciliation with Arab states and lastly, to weaken the US position in the Middle East when the inevitable disproportionate response is meted out.

Job done, I would say.

 

[Vic]

What wonderful Whataboutary.
Well Israel certainly wouldn't have invaded if that atrocity hadn't happened. Poking a stick in a beehive eally isn't a good idea.

As opposed to whatnotaboutery.

Well, Hamas wouldn't have existed if...

Netanyahu wouldn't be PM if someone who thinks like him hadn't assassinated a previous PM...

Colonising someone else's land isn't really a good idea...

 

[cucumberman]

I doubt it is indiscriminate. The casualties would be much much higher if it was.

Medicins Sans Frontiers, had their members killed. MSN labels it as indiscriminate bombing.

41 journalists have been killed. Their respective media outlets call it indiscriminate bombing.

119 UN workers have been killed. UN calls it indiscriminate bombing, emphasizing on Gaza being a ‘graveyard for children’

So MSN, media and UN might be who you can call and correct them that they are wrong, and that their days of being on the ground are just a figment of imagination because your armchair wisdom is the only other truth

 

[BlueAnorak]

Oh, sorry. You asked "Why did Hamas start it then?"

If by "it" you mean the conflict, they didn't, of course.

If by "it" you mean this particular phase of the conflict, I can think of many reasons, but the most likely is that Iran wanted, firstly, to give Israel a bloody nose and two, to scupper any Israel reconciliation with Arab states and lastly, to weaken the US position in the Middle East when the inevitable disproportionate response is meted out.

Job done, I would say.

It really is quite simple. Israel would not be dismantling Hamas in Gaza today if Hamas had not attacked Israel on 7h Oct.

 

[BlueAnorak]

Medicins Sans Frontiers, had their members killed. MSN labels it as indiscriminate bombing.

41 journalists have been killed. Their respective media outlets call it indiscriminate bombing.

119 UN workers have been killed. UN calls it indiscriminate bombing, emphasizing on Gaza being a ‘graveyard for children’

So MSN, media and UN might be who you can call and correct them that they are wrong, and that their days of being on the ground are just a figment of imagination because your armchair wisdom is the only other truth

As I said the casualties would be much higher if Israel had attacked indiscriminately. It is a simple statement.
Now I also disagree with their tactics but it doesn't make my statement incorrect.
BTW, Multiply by 10, 20 or more if they were being indiscriminate.

 

[halfcenturyup]

It really is quite simple. Israel would not be dismantling Hamas in Gaza today if Hamas had not attacked Israel on 7h Oct.

But that isn't what you asked me.

You work in IT right? Is that why your answers are so binary? It's always zeros or ones, no nuance, no subtlety. Everything so clear. Not trying to be provocative. Just an observation.

 

[M16 citeh]

What wonderful Whataboutary.
Well Israel certainly wouldn't have invaded if that atrocity hadn't happened. Poking a stick in a beehive really isn't a good idea.

Haha what? Thanks for answering my question... The foundation of the modern state of Israel in 1948 that brutally forced Palestinians from their homes is the start of this conflict for the record mate. The 7th of October is another in a long list of flash points in this conflict. But the way the media is presenting it (with no context in history) is as if this is an unprovoked attack on an innocent sovereign country. This narrative is used to justify Israel destroying what's left of Palestine.

 

[halfcenturyup]

Here is a thought imagine Hammas were to say we've fucked up and realised that this wasn't the way to get peace for our peolple how about we disarm ourselves and hand over the hostages in return for negotiations around a table and a new isrealis govememt ,think of the pressure that would put on isreal

Thanks for the chat, btw. We don't have to agree on the details, but I guess we all want the same at the end of the day.

 

[BlueAnorak]

Haha what? Thanks for answering my question... The foundation of the modern state of Israel in 1948 that brutally forced Palestinians from their homes is the start of this conflict for the record mate. The 7th of October is another in a long list of flash points in this conflict. But the way the media is presenting it (with no context in history) is as if this is an unprovoked attack on an innocent sovereign country. This narrative is used to justify Israel destroying what's left of Palestine.

What about Adam being handed an apple by Eve? If what you're saying is right then surely that is the start of if?
(Shakes head - and goes for a brew)

 

[dublinblue12]

I doubt it is indiscriminate. The casualties would be much much higher if it was.

4237 Children dead. 41 Journists dead. Deadlists ever 'war' for UN workers. More bombs dropped in a couple of weeks than the yanks dropped in Afghanistan. And that's just a few weeks in. Sounds fairly indiscrimate to me.

Edit: 16009000 times someone has said 'what about Hamas' in a wierd defense of the blatant war crimes being committed by a mental right wing regime

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Gideon Levy telling some home truths:

I think, for me therein lies the crux of the problem.
Over the course of the last 75+ years regardless of the legality of the occupation of these lands, the religious segregation and righteousness, the refusal to integration regardless of who in here sees it as a democracy and where this has led to now; the apartheid occupation of what we now term as Palestine is all too familiar and is a repetition of several histories where an occupying people refuse to integrate with local culture.

In Irish history we were always thought about a millennium of invasion. Of the Vikings and and Franco-Norman invasions it was always said that they became more Irish than the Irish themselves. They inter married and merged the cultures. Simplistic view I know but the real trouble happened with the religious wars in Europe and the Anglo-Norman invasion that did not integrate with local culture but instead chose to try and wipe it out.
A simple view of a complex time, but notwithstanding that, I think it is a problem with any occupation or colonialism.
Settling and integrating has a chance of peaceful existence.
The alternative is cleansing the land. I genuinely feel that Netanyahu has chosen this option.
It’s an atrocity, what happened on the 7th but I feel, shocked and all that he most probably is, he has waited for the one excuse to justify all he wants to achieve.

We’ll wait and see but I wouldn’t be the first to say that Israel has become what they despise and they feel they are right, ironically.

I think denial of this in the face of the 7th is either, self justification for your beliefs. Pure denial of Palestinian suffering and promotion of your own victimisation or perhaps both because of your own belief in a one state solution.

 

[M16 citeh]

What about Adam being handed an apple by Eve? If what you're saying is right then surely that is the start of if?
(Shakes head - and goes for a brew)

There is no point engaging any further with an imbecile

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

It's remarkable how Israeli intelligence is able to locate, target and take out Hamas locations and even specific individuals throughout Gaza, yet those same Israeli intelligence services supposedly had absolutely no idea that a 3000 strong force of Hamas fighters were going to invade Israel.

You could say that about pretty much every terrorist incident over the last 30 years. Security forces aren’t going to stop every attack. Whether that’s through lack of intelligence or just general mistakes. If it was that easy to stop we wouldn’t have countless numbers of incidents.

Unless your saying they purposely let was 1400 people die? Hamas who are also funded and supported by countries like Iran aren’t going to make huge attacks obvious either

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

What wonderful Whataboutary.
Well Israel certainly wouldn't have invaded if that atrocity hadn't happened. Poking a stick in a beehive really isn't a good idea.

I suppose if you are using a beehive analogy you could say that if you seal up the entrances and exits of a beehive, the bees will try to break out. I’d expect, they’d be pretty angry when they do.

Different beehive to yours that’s been poked of course.