Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

[halfcenturyup]

So what do we all think of the IDF's evidence? Nothing in their first attempt about a command and control centre under the hospital. Just a bag, some weapons and a laptop found in one place. All suspiciously small enough to be carried. Not looking like any concrete proof of anything they claimed, which makes me think they don't have it which, in turn, makes the Israelis and the Americans look rather foolish. Irresponsibly so.

 

[halfcenturyup]

So far it looks like they're saying one bad guy might have been hiding there, at some time.

Perhaps the most cynical thing was the PR photo of all the boxes with newly printed labels saying "medical supplies" in English.

All conveniently stacked with the enormous labels pointing at the camera. Yes, I thought that. They really are hopeless at PR. They need some training.

 

[goalmole]

So far it looks like they're saying one bad guy might have been hiding there, at some time.

Perhaps the most cynical thing was the PR photo of all the boxes with newly printed labels saying "medical supplies" in English.

You've got to be a moron to believe that bollocks.
It's amateurish beyond belief.
Laughable.
I can't believe they could be that stupid to put that kind of stuff out there.

 

[goalmole]

All conveniently stacked with the enormous labels pointing at the camera. Yes, I thought that. They really are hopeless at PR. They need some training.

They can get all the training they want.
You can't hide the truth.
The only people who believe them are their sycophantic cheerleaders in the West.

 

[halfcenturyup]

They can get all the training they want.
You can't hide the truth.
The only people who believe them are their sycophantic cheerleaders in the West.

To be fair, truth these days is whatever anyone wants it to be. Your truth nay not be someone else's truth and neither may be the actual truth.

But the Israelis aren't even good at convincing us of what they want us to believe is their version of the truth. Unless they come up with some convincing control and command centre it's +1 Hamas, -1 Israel and -10 America on this latest episode.

Maybe they don't actually give a fuck and all these attempts at PR are to appease their sponsors. It won't work unless they do it right.

 

[goalmole]

To be fair, truth these days is whatever anyone wants it to be. Your truth nay not be someone else's truth and neither may be the actual truth.

But the Israelis aren't even good at convincing us of what they want us to believe is their version of the truth. Unless they come up with some convincing control and command centre it's +1 Hamas, -1 Israel and -10 America on this latest episode.

Maybe they don't actually give a fuck and all these attempts at PR are to appease their sponsors. It won't work unless they do it right.

You can get away with a lot of you have some credibility in the bank.
The worldwide protests and reaction have shown that Israel's credibility is shot.

 

[BayernMan]

 

[Keeper!]

Dutch embassy warned that Israel uses "disproportionate force" in Gaza

A confidential memo from the Dutch Defense Attache at the embassy in Tel Aviv warned the government that the Israeli army “intends to deliberately cause enormous destruction to infrastructure and civilian centers” in the Gaza Strip, which explains the “high number of deaths” among Palestinian...

nltimes.nl

Leak of confidential Israel memo sparks outrage in Dutch parliament | Euractiv

The leak of a confidential memo from the Dutch embassy in Israel, in which Israel is accused of using ‘disproportionate force’ against civilians in Gaza to showcase military strength, has sparked outrage among left-wing Dutch lawmakers, with a plethora of MPs calling for a parliamentary debate...

www.euractiv.com

Oh dear.

Wow thats a shock, meanwhile the carnage and death continues unabated.

 

[halfcenturyup]

Well, fuck me. Go ahead and do what you want to Gaza, but you have to let Palestinian Americans travel from the West Bank to Israel. The humanity!

 

[halfcenturyup]

Hospitals are not a legitimate targets, it is illegal to attack a hospital under international law. The IDF have been attacking hospitals.

I suppose we need to be clear on this. Hospitals are protected under IHL. They can lose that protection if they are used to "commit acts harmful to the enemy". Even then, they can't be attacked without warnings and, even if those warnings are ignored, care must be given to wounded and sick and active measures must be taken to protect them.

To be fair to the IDF, they seem to have followed these steps IF you accept their claim that the hospital has lost its protection.

And this is the problem the IDF now have. Their claim, as far as I understand it, was based on a command and control centre being operated under (and presumably connected to) the hospital, and there being Hamas fighters inside. Unless, they can provide unequivocal proof of either of those, then the presumption has to be that the hospital was, indeed, protected, which makes its occupation illegal under IHL.

I think :)

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Hospitals are not a legitimate targets, it is illegal to attack a hospital under international law. The IDF have been attacking hospitals.

It is a war crime to dress as the general population, use human shields, and certainly use a hospital in military operations in war.

Quandary.

I would politely suggest fighting one’s way TO a hospital’s location in order to enter the building in a military raid is a distinctively different, both qualitatively and in actuality, from “attacking” a hospital at a distance using traditional explosive munitions, such as one equates both with this war and war in particular.

 

[vmsuhail]

My full Post I was on about but didn’t appear for some reason….

The War was started by Hamas -who don’t give two shits about Palestinian Civilians ( in common with the whole Arab World apart from as a Political Football -who is why they refuse to take any Refugees even though they are right next door)

More than 2 million Palestinian refugees live in Jordan, more than 200K in Lebanon , and about 100K in Egypt.

 

[goalmole]

My full Post I was on about but didn’t appear for some reason….

The War was started by Hamas -who don’t give two shits about Palestinian Civilians ( in common with the whole Arab World apart from as a Political Football -who is why they refuse to take any Refugees even though they are right next door)

The whole Arab world refuses to take refugees because if they do then they become complicit in Israel's ethnic cleansing of the West Bank and Gaza.
Also the Palestinians are refusing to leave because they don't want to vacate their land for Israeli settlers to then occupy.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

It is a war crime to dress as the general population, use human shields, and certainly use a hospital in military operations in war.

Quandary.

I would politely suggest fighting one’s way TO a hospital’s location in order to enter the building in a military raid is a distinctively different, both qualitatively and in actuality, from “attacking” a hospital at a distance using traditional explosive munitions, such as one equates both with this war and war in particular.

That's propaganda. There is zero independent evidence that that has occurred.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

More than 2 million Palestinian refugees live in Jordan, more than 200K in Lebanon , and about 100K in Egypt.

Hang on. We're always told that 750,000 were displaced in the Nakba. That means there are millions of Palestinians who are probably third or fourth generation who have never, ever, lived in the former Palestine territory. They were born in places like Jordan and Egypt but aren't allowed to be citizens, and their descendants may never be.

I said earlier in this thread that my great-grandparents came to the UK from Eastern Europe around 1900. I'm a third-generation British citizen, not a Russian refugee. My American daughter-in-law has a British passport alongside her US one because her father was born in London to parents who were American citizens living and working in the UK at the time of his birth.

The whole Arab world refuses to take refugees because if they do then they become complicit in Israel's ethnic cleansing of the West Bank and Gaza.

Now here's an interesting example of how people can hold two entirely conflicting views at the same time without any form (in their minds) of irony.

People seeing that Arab refusal as somehow noble, yet criticise our own government for its treatment of migrants and refugees. Even if you're of clear Palestinian descent but have no desire to go back and would love to be a Jordanian citizen, you're still not allowed to be. You're effectively an outsider and always will be. So being a 'Palestinian' despite having lived all your life in another country, is like being a Jew in Nazi Germany, but with the 'Palestinian' tag replacing the yellow star.

The real reason Arab governments (bar Lebanon I think) deny citizenship to even third or fourth generation Palestinians is because if they do that, the problem goes away and they have no stick to beat Israel with. And that shows just how Arabs see Palestinians. They're only useful as refugees, not as human beings.

 

[vmsuhail]

And that shows just how Arabs see Palestinians. They're only useful as refugees, not as human beings.

That's a very bad generalization. There are more factors in play there if you go through history, and you probably know the issues the PLO had with Jordan in the past.

 

[Magicpole]

So what do we all think of the IDF's evidence? Nothing in their first attempt about a command and control centre under the hospital. Just a bag, some weapons and a laptop found in one place. All suspiciously small enough to be carried. Not looking like any concrete proof of anything they claimed, which makes me think they don't have it which, in turn, makes the Israelis and the Americans look rather foolish. Irresponsibly so.

This to me sums up their evidence.

 

[LesBleuMiserable]

All conveniently stacked with the enormous labels pointing at the camera. Yes, I thought that. They really are hopeless at PR. They need some training.

It’s not about hopeless PR, if the Israelis look in the mirror they will see who the true animals are.

 

[halfcenturyup]

The real reason Arab governments (bar Lebanon I think) deny citizenship to even third or fourth generation Palestinians is because if they do that, the problem goes away and they have no stick to beat Israel with. And that shows just how Arabs see Palestinians. They're only useful as refugees, not as human beings.

I thought most Palestinian refugees in Jordan had been given citizenship. Is that not right?

 

[halfcenturyup]

The hospitals in Gaza have become terrorist headquarters for Hamas for years
and human exploitation of for terrorist purposes
Kidnappers were also clearly held there
,
Ceasefire ? Only after Gaza is free from terrorism! Or, of course, a short break for the return of hostages,
the Idf distroy terror ther forever
7/10 will never back again

That's the spirit.