Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

couple of amazing coincidences seem to have happened. A day or so after filming themselves taking boxes marked "medical supplies" into Al Shifa hospital the IDF found a handful of AK47's and some body armour to show to the BBC.
They also claim they were stored on some shelves next to a functioning MRI scanner. I have to ask would a scanner thats a big magnet function with a load of guns and ammo next to it.
The professional body the BMR Group seems to think its a bad idea

The presence of metal can be a serious problem in MRI, because (1) Magnetic metals can experience a force in the scanner, (2) Long wires (such as in pacemakers) can result in induced currents and heating from the RF magnetic field and (3) Metals cause the static (B0) magnetic field to be inhomogeneous, causing severe image degradation.
 
Cheadle_hulmeBlue said:
Butchering and massacring nearly 2,000 innocent people is ‘just what happens’. No it’s not.
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Yes it is and you know it. Hamas are evil, they will do whatever it takes to hurt Israel, whatever.

Israel are making it worse by stealing or taking (or what would you call it?) They shouldn't be doing that.

Are you saying it is fair that Israel take the land away for themselves? I mean maybe there's another side to that basic fact that Israel are taking land from others? But that is the surest way to inflame a group of people. Agreed?

I aint no Israel hater or hamas supporter, and Hamas are as shit as they are, and Israel are appearing to be quite shit themselves the more I find out. They have every right to retaliate but I'm talking about actually trying to ease the tension, Israel have been doing the opposite over the recent years.
 
inbetween said:
I agree physically they aren't an existential threat but their ideological goals are and does their limited means to enact those goals justify doing nothing? Bear in mind that 1000+ Israeli's were killed 6 weeks ago, it's within their capability to do great harm to Israel and right now that's what they're trying to do.

Many on here want Israel to leave the settlements and end the occupation which is fine, I agree. However do you honestly believe that Hamas and its allies will then call it a day and say thanks Israel, you live in your land, we'll live in ours and let's have peace? It's bollocks.

The Houthi's who are launching ballistic missiles at Israel live by this slogan "God is the Greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, Cursed be the Jews, Victory to Islam".
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Firstly, I didn't say you have to do nothing, but if we agree they aren't actually an existential threat then you don't need to be reactionary and brutal in your response, you can be strategic and smarter. If you want to be.....

Secondly, once again, you can be working to make Hamas irrelevant over a number of years by diplomacy and, yes, by military action, to a limited extent.

And lastly, I don't care much for slogans and soundbites. There are some pretty ugly soundbites coming out of Israel at the moment. Are the ballistic missiles Russian or Iranian? If they Iranian and I was Iranian, I would be telling them to wind their necks in, quite honestly. But again, nuclear weapons aren't useful as a deterrent against conventional weapons. Was that your point?

Look, I like you as a poster, we can discuss things. But we are coming from opposite ends of the spectrum. You are emotionally involved in this, and I am not. I get that. Maybe we should leave it there rather than go round in circles.
 
Gorton_Tubster said:
Yes it is and you know it. Hamas are evil, they will do whatever it takes to hurt Israel, whatever.

Israel are making it worse by stealing or taking (or what would you call it?) They shouldn't be doing that.

Are you saying it is fair that Israel take the land away for themselves? I mean maybe there's another side to that basic fact that Israel are taking land from others? But that is the surest way to inflame a group of people. Agreed?

I aint no Israel hater or hamas supporter, and Hamas are as shit as they are, and Israel are appearing to be quite shit themselves the more I find out. They have every right to retaliate but I'm talking about actually trying to ease the tension, Israel have been doing the opposite over the recent years.
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Of course they shouldn’t be stealing land, but that doesn’t justify what Hamas did. Torturing people or butchering innocent is not a normal response. Attacking the Israeli army sure. I’d say Hamas made things 1000 times worse for Palestinians by carrying out the attack they did.

Palestinines have a right to retaliate, but not in the way Hamas did it. Surely you agree with that. by that logic Isreal have a right to retaliate as well.

Get rid of Hamas and the Israeli government and that would probably help
 
bluethrunthru said:
couple of amazing coincidences seem to have happened. A day or so after filming themselves taking boxes marked "medical supplies" into Al Shifa hospital the IDF found a handful of AK47's and some body armour to show to the BBC.
They also claim they were stored on some shelves next to a functioning MRI scanner. I have to ask would a scanner thats a big magnet function with a load of guns and ammo next to it.
The professional body the BMR Group seems to think its a bad idea

The presence of metal can be a serious problem in MRI, because (1) Magnetic metals can experience a force in the scanner, (2) Long wires (such as in pacemakers) can result in induced currents and heating from the RF magnetic field and (3) Metals cause the static (B0) magnetic field to be inhomogeneous, causing severe image degradation.
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Cynic. :)
 
mexico1970 said:
I agree with you about it needs to happen, something tells me that if Israel agree not to nick any more land and stop killing Palestinians there would still be rockets landing on the Israelis heads and murders by terrorists groups.

We know that the solution is to get on, we know we can all look like we are the "bigger person" to suggest it and to mean it but it just isn't practical.

The only way to solve it long term would be to give said land to one side, even that'll be messy leading me to believe my great great grandchildren will be seeing this unfold too.
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The west and the Arab world need to come together and I am seeing some encouraging signs, but extreme pressure needs to put on Israel so that they continuing occupation is hurting them more than benefiting them

The grown ups need to take over and the war mongers need consigning to the historical dust bin
 
Ducado said:
The west and the Arab world need to come together and I am seeing some encouraging signs, but extreme pressure needs to put on Israel so that they continuing occupation is hurting them more than benefiting them

The grown ups need to take over and the war mongers need consigning to the historical dust bin
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We can all but hope mate, we can all but hope. I totally unreservedly agree with your sentiment.
 
Ducado said:
The west and the Arab world need to come together and I am seeing some encouraging signs, but extreme pressure needs to put on Israel so that they continuing occupation is hurting them more than benefiting them

The grown ups need to take over and the war mongers need consigning to the historical dust bin
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What are these signs of which you speak? I have trouble seeing anything.
 
Ducado said:
You may know that Hamas only exists and thrives on injustice and oppression take that away and they wither, there is no other solution but to give the Palestinians a state of their own, you do realise that eventually the Palestinian population will be larger than the Israeli population and then there will be a true apartheid situation

I guess you are still of the mindset that ever more bloodshed will solve the issue, crush a people into submission?

Whatever you do when you pick a side in this conflict don’t lose your humanity or empathy for everyone involved, too many people think continuing violence is the answer
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It's a true apartheid situation now in the West Bank.
The Jews live under Israeli civil law while the Palestinians are forced to live under an arbitrary military law administered according to the whim of the Israeli commanders of the time (think camp commandant)


Palestinians can't move in or out of their small communities because they are walled and fenced in with no freedom of movement except with the permission of the Israeli military authorities which is never forthcoming. So they never get to see or meet with relatives who may only be living a mile away because they are separated by a road or a fence or a wall.
These communities are nothing more than large impoverished concentration camps in a sea of affluent Jewish settlements.
The whole situation is designed to make life impossible for the Palestinians so they choose to move away, at which point the Israelis claim that the Palestinians are moving away of their own volition. A voluntary ethnic cleansing, if you will.

It really is a slow, ruthless strangulation of an entire nation and an abomination to humanity.
 
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There's no way Israel is going to consent to the removal of the 500,000 settlers from the West Bank & 200,000 from East Jerusalem. There's no way the IDF and police are going to get involved in the removal of settlers who will resist.

www.newyorker.com

The Extreme Ambitions of West Bank Settlers

A leader of the settlement movement on expanding into Gaza, and her vision for the Jewish state.
www.newyorker.com www.newyorker.com



I fail to see a solution that really results in two sovereign states.
 
bluethrunthru said:
couple of amazing coincidences seem to have happened. A day or so after filming themselves taking boxes marked "medical supplies" into Al Shifa hospital the IDF found a handful of AK47's and some body armour to show to the BBC.
They also claim they were stored on some shelves next to a functioning MRI scanner. I have to ask would a scanner thats a big magnet function with a load of guns and ammo next to it.
The professional body the BMR Group seems to think its a bad idea

The presence of metal can be a serious problem in MRI, because (1) Magnetic metals can experience a force in the scanner, (2) Long wires (such as in pacemakers) can result in induced currents and heating from the RF magnetic field and (3) Metals cause the static (B0) magnetic field to be inhomogeneous, causing severe image degradation.
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More chance they found Jimmy Hoffa in there that that brazenly fantastical story they told the BBC and even if they did find a few guns, why not show them evidence of tunnels, hardly worth the slaughter of so many innocent people for an arsenal the equivelent of what you would find in an average American gun nuts shed, never mind the international condemnation of the war crime they so easily committed.
 
Cheadle_hulmeBlue said:
So Isreal deserved to be attacked? And all of the innocent people who have nothing to do with it deserved to be massacred as well in their home and at a festival?

The displaced your defending are Hamas - an organisation who want to eradicate all Jewish people…

There’s no easy answer, but I don’t agree with Israel being attacked in the way it was. Negotiate some kind of ceasefire or think of a way forward, don’t massacre innocents - on both sides.
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The displaced are not Hamas. Hamas is the result of the displacement.
 
Vic said:
The displaced are not Hamas. Hamas is the result of the displacement.
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The previous poster said the displaced are fighting back - right now the ones doing the fighting are Hamas. I don’t think that’s incorrect. You’re talking about the overall picture of why.
 
Ducado said:
If there is one good thing to come out of this, it’s the attention that the world is now giving to the issue, there is no going back

The radical right government of Israel needs to go, they have no solution to this but violence and more war, and other solutions that would be unacceptable like mass transfer of Palestinians not once have I heard any suggestions for peace from them accept more of the same

As part of a peace agreement all armed Palestinian groups must agree to disarmament the only people allowed arms should be the security forces

There should (and there are some encouraging noises) be some serious nation building for the Palestinians including proper democratic institutions, I also believe that all surrounding countries should be part of the solution including perhaps giving up a bit of land to ensure that a viable state can be formed
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So no Palestinians with weapons, just trusting the IDF to protect them?
 
Cheadle_hulmeBlue said:
The previous poster said the displaced are fighting back - right now the ones doing the fighting are Hamas. I don’t think that’s incorrect. You’re talking about the overall picture of why.
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I posed a moral case a couple of days ago.

Is anyone who fires a gun at an IDF soldier in south Gaza a Hamas terrorist or just someone defending their home?
 
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