Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

[BayernMan]

 

[cucumberman]

Here's a follow-up to the original Greyzone article that's caused the fuss.

Haaretz confirms Grayzone reporting it dismissed as ‘conspiracy’ showing Israel killed own festivalgoers - The Grayzone

Haaretz has yet to admit it jumped the gun when it dismissed The Grayzone’s Max Blumenthal as a ‘conspiracy theorist’ for documenting crucial evidence that Israeli forces killed Israelis on October 7. But new reports by the same outlet show we were right all along. Israeli outlet Haaretz has...

thegrayzone.com

Incidentally The Socialist Worker claims it was served with a D-Notice at the end of October to do with British special forces deploying to Israel.

UK issues D-Notices to suppress reports of SAS special forces operations in Gaza

D Notices are used by the British state to veto the publication of news damaging to its interests. The slavish collusion of the mainstream media ensures that such notices function as gag orders.

www.wsws.org

RAF admits to making 17 military flights to Israel since Gaza bombing began

But Declassified discovers 33 UK military transport flights to Tel Aviv in the last month, including every day for two weeks after the Gaza bombing began.

www.declassifieduk.org

The information acquired by both YNET and Haaretz have been direct accounts and enquiries of the frontline IDFs opinions and disclosures of the melee and scattergun approaches that they had to engage.

Their accounts of having to strike first (thus first strike) was as their comments the lack of orders and what to conduct. Given that they are unable to discern who/where are their enemies and who are their own, it makes sense, however unfortunate to the escapees, that they were expected to attack first shoot on sight rather than for example be surprised too late by an RPG. The scene was surreal and chaotic.

In an interview with Israel’s Mako news outlet, one Apache pilot reflected on the tortuous dilemma of whether to shoot at people and cars returning to Gaza. He knew that many of those vehicles may have contained Israeli captives. But he chose to open fire anyway. “I choose targets like that,” the pilot reflected, “where I tell myself that the chance that I am shooting here on hostages as well is low.” However, he admitted that his judgment “was not 100%.”

“I understand that we have to shoot here and quickly,” the commander of the Apache unit, Lt. Col. E., told Mako in a separate report. “Shooting at people in our territory – this is something I never thought I would do.”

Lt. Col. A., a reserve pilot in the same unit, described a fog of confusion: “I find myself in a dilemma as to what to shoot at, because there are so many of them.”

 

[metalblue]

Again people are posting stuff from X, it's just a echo chamber with very little reliable information or posting half a story or out of context information

Correct but good luck getting anyone to pay any attention to this post.

 

[mexico1970]

Correct but good luck getting anyone to pay any attention to this post.

I'm off to ex Twitter to get an opinion off someone else adopt it as my own and post it here.

At the very least a quote from some person who died 100 years ago to substantiate an opinion I borrow and use as if it's the truth :)

 

[west didsblue]

Here's a follow-up to the original Greyzone article that's caused the fuss.

Haaretz confirms Grayzone reporting it dismissed as ‘conspiracy’ showing Israel killed own festivalgoers - The Grayzone

Haaretz has yet to admit it jumped the gun when it dismissed The Grayzone’s Max Blumenthal as a ‘conspiracy theorist’ for documenting crucial evidence that Israeli forces killed Israelis on October 7. But new reports by the same outlet show we were right all along. Israeli outlet Haaretz has...

thegrayzone.com

Incidentally The Socialist Worker claims it was served with a D-Notice at the end of October to do with British special forces deploying to Israel.

UK issues D-Notices to suppress reports of SAS special forces operations in Gaza

D Notices are used by the British state to veto the publication of news damaging to its interests. The slavish collusion of the mainstream media ensures that such notices function as gag orders.

www.wsws.org

RAF admits to making 17 military flights to Israel since Gaza bombing began

But Declassified discovers 33 UK military transport flights to Tel Aviv in the last month, including every day for two weeks after the Gaza bombing began.

www.declassifieduk.org

You only have to read that Grayzone article to realise its lack of integrity. It takes snippets of what happened and attempts to piece together a narrative that almost suggests Hamas came over to southern Israel for a picnic and the IDF opened fire on everyone in sight whether Israeli or Palestinian. Unfortunately for the deniers multiple videos prove otherwise and somehow over 200 Israelis ended up in Gaza when Hamas finished their day out. Max Blumenthal is renowned for his hatred of Israel and will do or say anything to put them in a bad light. There’s enough real examples of the crimes of Netanyahu and his government without having to make up a whole conspiracy narrative based on a few actual isolated incidents reported in the Israeli press.

 

[BayernMan]

 

[Ducado]

Well not really the evidence is in the billions of military aid our leaders send to Israel and the history of the wars we have waged in that region often failing in our aims miserably and destabilising the region but lining our own pockets in the process. The videos are just them letting the mask slip as they hide behind the vale of spreading democracy when usually in the public eye

The record is not good i grant you that, put you have to understand realpolitik that is practised by the West, everything that is done within the interests of the West or as the democratically elected governments think at the time and often they get it wrong, but often they get it right, the very fact you are sat there having this debate in relative freedom with a standard of living that is way better than the majority of the worlds population is proof positive

 

[Username Required]

The record is not good i grant you that, put you have to understand realpolitik that is practised by the West, everything that is done within the interests of the West or as the democratically elected governments think at the time and often they get it wrong, but often they get it right, the very fact you are sat there having this debate in relative freedom with a standard of living that is way better than the majority of the worlds population is proof positive

Realism in Foreign Policy Analysis

"Realism in Foreign Policy Analysis" published on by Oxford University Press.

oxfordre.com

Realism in Foreign Policy Analysis.​

"The relative size of a state’s material resources is likely to influence its ability to set agendas and influence specific decisions and outcomes in international affairs. And the nature of the strategic environment, most importantly whether the security and survival of the state is under immediate threat, is likely to influence the relative weight of domestic influences on foreign policy. In sum, great powers enjoy a bigger external action space in their foreign policies than weaker states, and secure states enjoy a bigger external action space in their foreign policies than insecure states."

and

"...offensive realists argue that only by creating an imbalance of power in its own favor will a state be able to maximize its security."

 

[BayernMan]

Christ….

 

[inbetween]

Here's a follow-up to the original Greyzone article that's caused the fuss.

Haaretz confirms Grayzone reporting it dismissed as ‘conspiracy’ showing Israel killed own festivalgoers - The Grayzone

Haaretz has yet to admit it jumped the gun when it dismissed The Grayzone’s Max Blumenthal as a ‘conspiracy theorist’ for documenting crucial evidence that Israeli forces killed Israelis on October 7. But new reports by the same outlet show we were right all along. Israeli outlet Haaretz has...

thegrayzone.com

Incidentally The Socialist Worker claims it was served with a D-Notice at the end of October to do with British special forces deploying to Israel.

UK issues D-Notices to suppress reports of SAS special forces operations in Gaza

D Notices are used by the British state to veto the publication of news damaging to its interests. The slavish collusion of the mainstream media ensures that such notices function as gag orders.

www.wsws.org

RAF admits to making 17 military flights to Israel since Gaza bombing began

But Declassified discovers 33 UK military transport flights to Tel Aviv in the last month, including every day for two weeks after the Gaza bombing began.

www.declassifieduk.org

These are really bizarre articles.

The first one has already been debunked as Apache footage that came from the Iraq war. It's very interesting in that it's quite clearly an anti-NATO website, go figure? In any event, militaries do not routinely release HUD footage one month after the event, especially sensitive footage which will be classified. It also mentions a Police report, the Police do not investigate military matters in most countries because militaries have their own Police.

If the Socialist Worker has been issued with a D-notice, so what? D-notices are routinely issued for sensitive military operations, this is to protect the people involved and not to cover anything up. Clearly the Socialist Worker doesn't give a shit about the wellbeing of British military personnel on operations.

On the last one, the RAF routinely flies throughout the area. The aircraft in question may be supplying aid or who knows what. I really don't see the point that is trying to be made? The UK supplies relatively limited arms to Israel and certainly munitions will not be supplied using RAF aircraft.

 

[Uptop]

You only have to read that Grayzone article to realise its lack of integrity. It takes snippets of what happened and attempts to piece together a narrative that almost suggests Hamas came over to southern Israel for a picnic and the IDF opened fire on everyone in sight whether Israeli or Palestinian. Unfortunately for the deniers multiple videos prove otherwise and somehow over 200 Israelis ended up in Gaza when Hamas finished their day out. Max Blumenthal is renowned for his hatred of Israel and will do or say anything to put them in a bad light. There’s enough real examples of the crimes of Netanyahu and his government without having to make up a whole conspiracy narrative based on a few actual isolated incidents reported in the Israeli press.

Grayzone is just straight propaganda, how are things like this still getting linked in here?

 

[west didsblue]

Grayzone is just straight propaganda, how are things like this still getting linked in here?

Some people just want to buy into it. I find it depressing that there are people so consumed with their hatred of Israel that they want to believe what is obviously propaganda. It’s not like there’s a shortage of real things to criticise Israel about but buying into denial of reality and rewriting history to create a new narrative that Hamas haven’t done much wrong and are just a bit misunderstood is taking it to another level.

 

[Username Required]

Some people just want to buy into it. I find it depressing that there are people so consumed with their hatred of Israel that they want to believe what is obviously propaganda. It’s not like there’s a shortage of real things to criticize Israel about but buying into denial of reality and rewriting history to create a new narrative that Hamas haven’t done much wrong and are just a bit misunderstood is taking it to another level.

Use the search function for this thread. You're searching for "Hamas Delenda Est".

 

[BayernMan]

We are still in the “hope” stage…

 

[trueblue1972]

Some people just want to buy into it. I find it depressing that there are people so consumed with their hatred of Israel that they want to believe what is obviously propaganda. It’s not like there’s a shortage of real things to criticise Israel about but buying into denial of reality and rewriting history to create a new narrative that Hamas haven’t done much wrong and are just a bit misunderstood is taking it to another level.

The precise reason I stopped posting

 

[Username Required]

“It could be that the Biden administration is trying behind the scenes … but they probably aren’t getting anywhere. When the Israelis feel that they’re in an existential threat situation, the amount of American leverage drops,”

US has sent Israel data on aid group locations to try to prevent strikes

Among the sites provided to the Israeli government are medical facilities, including Al-Shifa hospital, which Israeli forces raided last week.

www.politico.com

 

[Ducado]

Ok but when you view the global situation post colonialy it becomes clear that the relative lack of freedom is in part a result of the west's actions.

What do you mean by freedom? Freedom of expression is one thing. Free market is another. I view freedom in this context as the freedom to excercise consumer choices which also contributes a lot to identity formation - this is a social construction or even market construction. I dont believe we have full freedom of expression, especially as person marginalised by race with connections to other (marginalised) global cultures.

Furthermore, why do you constantly assume that in Islamic countries the principles of freedom and rights don't exist? They do but just in a framework and context that you fail to recognise.

We have freedom of expression within a framework, which suits most people for sake of argument this type of discussion in say Iran could have you imprisoned

I am quite well traveled and from what I have seen the Liberal Democracy model is the best overall model, it’s my opinion based on lived experiences you are of course to believe otherwise

 

[Ducado]

Some people just want to buy into it. I find it depressing that there are people so consumed with their hatred of Israel that they want to believe what is obviously propaganda. It’s not like there’s a shortage of real things to criticise Israel about but buying into denial of reality and rewriting history to create a new narrative that Hamas haven’t done much wrong and are just a bit misunderstood is taking it to another level.

It’s a classic case of finding evidence to fit your own narrative, if I was to say that all City fans were like extras out of Shameless, I bet if I looked hard enough I could find a random photo that proved my point, or just use AI to make one up, that’s the nature of belief

I will leave this thought provoking passage for people to digest

As Dr. Leonard Orr has noted, the human mind behaves as if it were divided into two parts, the Thinker and the Prover.

The Thinker can think about virtually anything.
(...) The Prover is a much simpler mechanism. It operates on one law only: Whatever the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves. To cite a notorious example which unleashed incredible horrors earlier in this century, if the Thinker thinks that all Jews are rich, the Prover will prove it. It will find evidence that the poorest Jew in the most run-down ghetto has hidden money somewhere. Similarly, Feminists are able to believe that all men, including the starving wretches who live and sleep on the streets, are exploiting all women, including the Queen of England.

Robert Anton Wilson

 

[mexico1970]

Ok but when you view the global situation post colonialy it becomes clear that the relative lack of freedom is in part a result of the west's actions.

What do you mean by freedom? Freedom of expression is one thing. Free market is another. I view freedom in this context as the freedom to excercise consumer choices which also contributes a lot to identity formation - this is a social construction or even market construction. I dont believe we have full freedom of expression, especially as person marginalised by race with connections to other (marginalised) global cultures.

Furthermore, why do you constantly assume that in Islamic countries the principles of freedom and rights don't exist? They do but just in a framework and context that you fail to recognise.

Everything is a social construct mate, and by everything I mean every single little thing we do no matter where we live and what rules we are governed by be it tribal elders or a fully functioning western democracy.

I would rather live by western liberal constructs than let's say Islamic ones, being western and being able to call Boris a **** without getting a knock at the door is a freedom that I enjoy.

 

[BayernMan]

The mental gymnastics to maintain this is fascinating…