Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

I see that but are you saying that the existence of Israel itself is an occupation? or are you saying that the Israelis venturing outside Israeli borders are the occupation. i.e. Does Israel have a right to exist.
If I suddenly had the idea of setting up a country for me and my friends to live in, and I chose Jamaica because we like warm weather. We split it 50/50 with the locals. Also the US was on board because one of my friends was Mark Zuckerberg.

Would you say my country had the right to exist?
 
If I suddenly had the idea of setting up a country for me and my friends to live in, and I chose Jamaica because we like warm weather. We split it 50/50 with the locals. Also the US was on board because one of my friends was Mark Zuckerberg.

Would you say my country had the right to exist?
So are you saying Israel does not have a right to exist?
 
So are you saying Israel does not have a right to exist?
Why do you keep repeating the name of a country and its right to exist? What does the question mean?
Its people, its name? It feels like the same fog created by those who repeated the question, 'Do you support Hamas?' to cloud any discussion about events in Gaza.
 

We were faced with the question: what about the women and children? – I decided to find a clear solution to this problem too. I did not consider myself justified to exterminate the men – in other words, to kill them or have them killed and allow the avengers of our sons and grandsons in the form of their children to grow up. The difficult decision had to be made to have this people disappear from the earth.

Heinrich Himmler 1943
 
Trump following Netanyahu's nonsense.

It might be coincidence but after the BBC News Live item (not live) about the Washington murders it went to BBC Verify's lengthy analysis of the IDF bombing of the European hospital in Gaza with bunker buster bombs.

It might be coincidence but Netanyahu and Israel will bear the price of what they have done for years to come especially in places like America where any unhinged person can purchase a weapon.
What is happening to the remaining hostage ?, don’t they care about them starving along with the children of Gaza, the IDF have control of Gaza, are they searching buildings one by one, ? it’s 25 miles wide surely they have found them all by now.
I’m sickened by Netanyahu blaming Starmer Carney and Macron for the killings in the US and equally sick of Trump backing him to raise Gaza to the ground tonight the pictures of dying babies are horrific.
 
I'm saying that the founding of the state of Israel happened because they had powerful friends. The rights of the indigenous population were never considered.
Well, no - even the Balfour Declaration demanded respect for the rights of the indigenous population. It's just that those rights have been ignored.

My question would be whether, in those circumstances, a "nice" Israel was ever possible. And the present situation is because - apart from a brief period 30-25 years ago - the prevailing view in Israel has been based on Jabotinsky's "Iron Wall" doctrine - that the indigenous Arab population would never quietly retreat in the face of colonial Zionism. That this "Revisionist Zionism" should still be the guiding principle in Israel a century later suggests that (a) Jabotinsky never thought "never" meant never and (b) some other way must be found if Israel is to have any sort of peace within the next hundred years - and they may have to find that way without relying on a western world that, if it doesn't deny the Holocaust, will no longer feel guilty for it - at least not to the extent of being willing to allow a new genocide.

Specially for @Palerider and any others who could do with a brief history lesson, here's the basic Iron Wall idea. It includes a reminder of how the Jews came into the promised land in the first place - as colonisers "like brigands".

Voluntary Agreement Not Possible.

There can be no voluntary agreement between ourselves and the Palestine Arabs. Not now, nor in the prospective future. I say this with such conviction, not because I want to hurt the moderate Zionists. I do not believe that they will be hurt. Except for those who were born blind, they realised long ago that it is utterly impossible to obtain the voluntary consent of the Palestine Arabs for converting "Palestine" from an Arab country into a country with a Jewish majority.

My readers have a general idea of the history of colonisation in other countries. I suggest that they consider all the precedents with which they are acquainted, and see whether there is one solitary instance of any colonisation being carried on with the consent of the native population. There is no such precedent.

The native populations, civilised or uncivilised, have always stubbornly resisted the colonists, irrespective of whether they were civilised or savage.

And it made no difference whatever whether the colonists behaved decently or not. The companions of Cortez and Pizzaro or (as some people will remind us) our own ancestors under Joshua Ben Nun, behaved like brigands; but the Pilgrim Fathers, the first real pioneers of North America, were people of the highest morality, who did not want to do harm to anyone, least of all to the Red Indians, and they honestly believed that there was room enough in the prairies both for the Paleface and the Redskin. Yet the native population fought with the same ferocity against the good colonists as against the bad.


Full article: https://en.jabotinsky.org/media/9747/the-iron-wall.pdf
 
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Well, no - even the Balfour Declaration demanded respect for the rights of the indigenous population. It's just that those rights have been ignored.

My question would be whether, in those circumstances, a "nice" Israel was ever possible. And the present situation is because - apart from a brief period 30-25 years ago - the prevailing view in Israel has been based on Jabotinsky's "Iron Wall" doctrine - that the indigenous Arab population would never quietly retreat in the face of colonial Zionism. That this "Revisionist Zionism" should still be the guiding principle in Israel a century later suggests that (a) Jabotinsky never thought "never" meant never and (b) some other solution must be found if Israel is to have any sort of peace within the next hundred years - and they may have to find that solution without relying on a western world that, if it doesn't deny the Holocaust, will no longer feel guilty for it - at least not to the extent of being willing to allow a new genocide.

Specially for @Palerider and any others who could do with a brief history lesson, here's the basic Iron Wall idea. It includes a reminder of how the Jews came into the promised land in the first place - as colonisers "like brigands".

Voluntary Agreement Not Possible.

There can be no voluntary agreement between ourselves and the Palestine Arabs. Not now, nor in the prospective future. I say this with such conviction, not because I want to hurt the moderate Zionists. I do not believe that they will be hurt. Except for those who were born blind, they realised long ago that it is utterly impossible to obtain the voluntary consent of the Palestine Arabs for converting "Palestine" from an Arab country into a country with a Jewish majority.

My readers have a general idea of the history of colonisation in other countries. I suggest that they consider all the precedents with which they are acquainted, and see whether there is one solitary instance of any colonisation being carried on with the consent of the native population. There is no such precedent.

The native populations, civilised or uncivilised, have always stubbornly resisted the colonists, irrespective of whether they were civilised or savage.

And it made no difference whatever whether the colonists behaved decently or not. The companions of Cortez and Pizzaro or (as some people will remind us) our own ancestors under Joshua Ben Nun, behaved like brigands; but the Pilgrim Fathers, the first real pioneers of North America, were people of the highest morality, who did not want to do harm to anyone, least of all to the Red Indians, and they honestly believed that there was room enough in the prairies both for the Paleface and the Redskin. Yet the native population fought with the same ferocity against the good colonists as against the bad.


Full article: https://en.jabotinsky.org/media/9747/the-iron-wall.pdf
I was aware that the Balfour's declaration mentioned the rights of the indigenous population but having read the 100 year war on Palestine by Rashid Khalid those rights were ignored every step of the way to the foundation of the Jewish state.

The Jabotinsky stuff you have posted regularly is very interesting as he appeared to be very straightforward on what needed to be done. But his narrative was buried behind all the Israeli propaganda, a land without people for a people without land, turning the desert into fertile land etc etc.and this was the narrative the West have believed.
 
I see that but are you saying that the existence of Israel itself is an occupation? or are you saying that the Israelis venturing outside Israeli borders are the occupation. i.e. Does Israel have a right to exist.
Yes, Israel has a right to exist. So too does Palestine. And I'm saying Israel encroaching on pre-agreed boundaries is the occupation, there's also the minor detail of them killing thousands in their way to fulfill their idealogy.

Let me ask you a question. Are the current Israeli administration less evil than Hamas because they use the guise of modern warfare and the nonchalance of the West to commit their slaughter?
 
I was aware that the Balfour's declaration mentioned the rights of the indigenous population but having read the 100 year war on Palestine by Rashid Khalid those rights were ignored every step of the way to the foundation of the Jewish state.

The Jabotinsky stuff you have posted regularly is very interesting as he appeared to be very straightforward on what needed to be done. But his narrative was buried behind all the Israeli propaganda, a land without people for a people without land, turning the desert into fertile land etc etc.and this was the narrative the West have believed.
The slogan "a land without people for a people without land" is worth a study in itself - so see wikipedia! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_lan...land#Interpretation_of_the_phrase_by_scholars

But some Zionists, including Herzl, actually had to visit the land to realise it wasn't without people. Jabotinsky just articulated the argument that "moderate Zionists" were "born blind" if they thought they could colonise other people's land without violence - and that violence (putting down any resistance) would have to be done either by British troops under the Mandate (and the Balfour Declaration) or by Jewish soldiers.

Oh, and Jabotinsky included Transjordan in "the land". He had a fond hope that the Arabs (Muslim and Christian) could all happily live in a Jewish-majority state - once the idea of any alternative had been beaten out of them (I paraphrase but that's his implication).
 
Yes, Israel has a right to exist. So too does Palestine. And I'm saying Israel encroaching on pre-agreed boundaries is the occupation, there's also the minor detail of them killing thousands in their way to fulfill their idealogy.

Let me ask you a question. Are the current Israeli administration less evil than Hamas because they use the guise of modern warfare and the nonchalance of the West to commit their slaughter?
So, we are not that far away from each other. I believe that both have a right to exist, both should have their own defined lands and both should then leave each other alone. I honestly think that the only people who do not believe that are the extremists on both sides.

To answer your question and perhaps where we will differ. I believe that Israel, if they could, would put the name of every Hamas member on a bullet or bomb and send it. i.e. They would kill every Hamas member and leave the rest of the innocent Palestinians alive. I also believe that Hamas would not bother putting names on their bullets and bombs and just send their bullets and bombs to kill Jews any Jews. So I do see Hamas as the greater evil but likewise I fully accept that Hamas can never ever be totally wiped out and that the continueing bombing of Gaza has moved into outright cruelty. The increasingly small number of Hamas members being killed can no longer be justified against the number of innocent civilians being killed (remember also that Hamas has deliberately embedded themselves into civilian areas so that if a Hamas member dies almost certainly innocent civiliams would die too, that is by Hamas design for PR purposes). Essentially I see this war/battle as over militarily and the diplomats need to take over and negotiate. So I see the Israeli administration as now drifting into Hamas like behaviour but no where near the level of depravity of Hamas (yet).
 
So, we are not that far away from each other. I believe that both have a right to exist, both should have their own defined lands and both should then leave each other alone. I honestly think that the only people who do not believe that are the extremists on both sides.

To answer your question and perhaps where we will differ. I believe that Israel, if they could, would put the name of every Hamas member on a bullet or bomb and send it. i.e. They would kill every Hamas member and leave the rest of the innocent Palestinians alive. I also believe that Hamas would not bother putting names on their bullets and bombs and just send their bullets and bombs to kill Jews any Jews. So I do see Hamas as the greater evil but likewise I fully accept that Hamas can never ever be totally wiped out and that the continueing bombing of Gaza has moved into outright cruelty. The increasingly small number of Hamas members being killed can no longer be justified against the number of innocent civilians being killed (remember also that Hamas has deliberately embedded themselves into civilian areas so that if a Hamas member dies almost certainly innocent civiliams would die too, that is by Hamas design for PR purposes). Essentially I see this war/battle as over militarily and the diplomats need to take over and negotiate. So I see the Israeli administration as now drifting into Hamas like behaviour but no where near the level of depravity of Hamas (yet).
If you genuinely believe that, I’ve got a get-rich-quick scheme to sell you.
 
So, we are not that far away from each other. I believe that both have a right to exist, both should have their own defined lands and both should then leave each other alone. I honestly think that the only people who do not believe that are the extremists on both sides.

To answer your question and perhaps where we will differ. I believe that Israel, if they could, would put the name of every Hamas member on a bullet or bomb and send it. i.e. They would kill every Hamas member and leave the rest of the innocent Palestinians alive. I also believe that Hamas would not bother putting names on their bullets and bombs and just send their bullets and bombs to kill Jews any Jews. So I do see Hamas as the greater evil but likewise I fully accept that Hamas can never ever be totally wiped out and that the continueing bombing of Gaza has moved into outright cruelty. The increasingly small number of Hamas members being killed can no longer be justified against the number of innocent civilians being killed (remember also that Hamas has deliberately embedded themselves into civilian areas so that if a Hamas member dies almost certainly innocent civiliams would die too, that is by Hamas design for PR purposes). Essentially I see this war/battle as over militarily and the diplomats need to take over and negotiate. So I see the Israeli administration as now drifting into Hamas like behaviour but no where near the level of depravity of Hamas (yet).

You are absolutely fucking braindead and delusion clearly has no boundaries. Don't respond, you are blocked.
 
Yes, Israel has a right to exist. So too does Palestine. And I'm saying Israel encroaching on pre-agreed boundaries is the occupation, there's also the minor detail of them killing thousands in their way to fulfill their idealogy.

Let me ask you a question. Are the current Israeli administration less evil than Hamas because they use the guise of modern warfare and the nonchalance of the West to commit their slaughter?
Israel encroaching on (invading) Palestinian territory has similarities to NATO expansion, which has ultimately led to the war in Ukraine.
I cannot agree with what Putin has done, but Netanyahu is many, many times worse.
 

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