Middle East Conflict

[Vic]

Zionism has had various generally accepted interpretations over time and has many different types. To call for the world to be dezionised is not just pointless, it’s inflammatory. As per my earlier post people like this making such unrealistic demands are the barrier to peace. No more so than an Israeli demanding the end of a Palestinian state or a subservient Palestinian population is a barrier either. Change comes from you, expecting the other side to change will only lead to disappointment.

What’s troubling is this is what passes as someone worthy of a soap box at a rally, a rally that was to protest at the very last thing in your post, the killing of innocent civilians in Gaza (and the West Bank).

Did you misspeak? Making an equivalence between someone calling for dezionising (whatever that means) and someone demanding an end to (hopes of) a Palestinian state. Because the latter is Likud policy (only Israeli sovereignty from the river to the sea).

"Dezionise" is certainly not helpful, not just because it begs questions about different interpretations of Zionism, but because he may indeed be implying an end to the Jewish state. But if Zionists want an Israel with no Palestinians, then there's that issue of equivalence again.

 

[metalblue]

Did you misspeak? Making an equivalence between someone calling for dezionising (whatever that means) and someone demanding an end to (hopes of) a Palestinian state. Because the latter is Likud policy (only Israeli sovereignty from the river to the sea).

"Dezionise" is certainly not helpful, not just because it begs questions about different interpretations of Zionism, but because he may indeed be implying an end to the Jewish state. But if Zionists want an Israel with no Palestinians, then there's that issue of equivalence again.

No unrelated to calling for dezionising (whatever that means as you say or moreover what HE actually meant by it)…my point was about making unrealistic demands of either side is a barrier to peace.

 

[cucumberman]

Years before the Nakba, and in adherence to the true Zionism that was intended for peaceful discussions

“
In a speech to graduating officers of Israel’s Army Staff and Command College in 1968, Moshe Dayan told the story of Dr. Arthur Ruppin. Dr. Ruppin directed Jewish settlement efforts in Palestine from 1920, the year he returned to the country after a dozen years in exile by Ottoman order. During his absence from Palestine, Dr. Ruppin was one of the few Zionists to seriously seek an answer to the" Arab question."

Dayan told the young officers, "Dr. Ruppin was a humanist by nature, a man of conscience, and when he encountered the'Arab question,'he wanted to be persuaded that Zionism could be fulfilled without detriment to the Arabs of Palestine."

In May 1911, Ruppin “suggested in a letter to the Zionist executive a limited population transfer" of Palestinian Arabs dispossessed by Jewish land purchases to other lands near Aleppo and Horns."But this was vetoed because it was bound to increase Arab suspicions about Zionist intentions."

In 1914 Ruppin proposed that a part of all lands acquired by Jews in Palestine be set aside for Arab tenants. While Ruppin had every intention of colonizing Palestine, his intention was not to do so without considering the feelings of the indigenous population.

But, as Dayan revealed to the officers, Ruppin's answer to the “Arab question" evolved in three stages: in 1923, Ruppin hoped to integrate Jewish immigrants into the fabric of the Arab East; in 1925, recognizing differences between the European Jewish immigrants and their indigenous Semitic cousins, he favoured the creation in Palestine of a single “bi-national state".
“

————————

For the true Zionists, not only they did not consider a two-state solution, they were for a bi-national state.

Yet, the first action of Israel, using Zionism as its facade, is in forcibly displacing and ethnic cleansing of the ‘barren land’ Palestine.

 

[metalblue]

Then talk to Ilan Pappe, he’s in Exeter if you want to understand, from an intellectual Jew, who has been fires by Ministry of Education Israel and exiled.

Or talk to Gideon Levy, he’s the head of Haaretz, which is the left-wing to counter the right-wing (and Netanyahu owned and funded) 24.

Or Avi Shlaim, he’s around Oxford if you want to understand. He has done more than 20 years on describing what Zionism is.

There are many more intellects who are moderate Jews, start reading first. Again there’s WHSmith. How about John Ryland’s library?

The point is there isn’t one definition. It’s a collection, evolving, with many branches. Reading one person’s interpretation isn’t going to further this conversation nor help us understand what the speech from the protest was calling for.

Anyway we are getting way off track here.

 

[cucumberman]

The point is there isn’t one definition. It’s a collection, evolving, with many branches. Reading one person’s interpretation isn’t going to further this conversation nor help us understand what the speech from the protest was calling for.

Anyway we are getting way off track here.

To keep it simple, the Zionism version today, and one that are oppresive, supremacist, selective, is very unlike and completely different from Zionist Organisation created in the 1905 and then applied within at the time Mandatory Palestine in 1925. Several true Zionist groups, including notably Brit Shalom and Ihud were tirelessly working towards a unified Arab and Jew Palestine.

Yet the 1948 Nakba is a sudden stark opposite of what is Zionism, but the aggression still refer Zionism as the tenet of ethnically cleansing and massacres of Palestinians.

The true Zionists Ihud disbanded, many decided to abandon Israel. The Zionism disapproved by pro-Palestinians and left-wing Jews, is the faux Zionism.

 

[cucumberman]

“We who live abroad are accustomed to believing that the Arabs are all wild desert people who, like donkeys, neither see nor understand what is happening around them. But this is a grave mistake”

- Eretz Israel (by The founder of Zionism, 1891)

“suddenly they [the Jewish settlers] find themselves in unrestricted freedom and this change has awakened in them an inclination to nepotism. They correspond the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes the despicable and dangerous inclination”

- Eretz Israel (by The founder of Zionism, 1891)

“The country under such conditions (…) will lead up to the steady enlargement and development of the Jewish settlement so that it may ultimately develop into a Jewish commonwealth on national lines; it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine on the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country”

- Paris Peace Conference (by The founder of Zionism, 1919)


However, despite the unanimous right of Zionism that emphasised on the equal rights and acceptance of Arabs, by the founder of Zionism no less, the right-wing adopted the term ‘Zionism’ yet revised the principles from the pacifist peaceful stance to the oppressive vengeful stance that fueled 1948 up to the war today.

More than 23,000 civilians with at least 8,000 under the rubble. Killed in 104 days.

 

[bluethrunthru]

IDF spread as much nonsense and bullshit as Hamas do.

We've just found some guns wedged at the back of an MRI scanner therefore this is Hamas's base.

This sort of MRI scanner - were they metal guns?

 

[BayernMan]

 

[BayernMan]

That makes things all better….

 

[BayernMan]

Unfortunately this is no surprise…