Don Karleone
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Middle East Conflict
- Thread starter The blue phantom
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Doesn't this sum up the problem? The Palestinian cause itself is not clear because it is fractured by two different parties, one of which is willing to murder Israeli's to the complete detriment of its own population. You could argue well the Palestinians suffer anyway but their situation now is infinitely worse thanks to the actions of Hamas.
You only have to view it in this lens really, why would Israel ever consider any talks at all with anyone whilst Hamas holds Israeli hostages in Gaza? I still think the way forward is clear, Hamas has to give up the hostages and surrender, following that Israel will have no choice but to stop the violence.
If Hamas is unwilling to surrender then I don't really know where this is going to go other than the violence will continue, it's surely then just a question of how much violence by Israel is deemed proportionate? Either way people will still die, it just might be less of them which is hardly a solution.
The PLO has recognized Israel’s right to exist and publicly denounced terrorism so much so that they are dubbed as security subcontractors for the IDF. Why didn’t the Israeli government come to a final settlement with the PLO in the West Bank? Just cause Hamas exists in Gaza I don’t see why the Israeli government didn’t just go ahead and discuss a truce with Palestinians under the PLO. One could argue that doing so would further disempower Hamas by showing the world but most importantly Palestinians that Israel and Palestinians can coexist while rogue actors such as Hamas are the obstacle. Instead we see rising violence in the West Bank and a growing pro Hamas sentiment in the West Bank…
Is Israel at war with the authorities in the West Bank? Hamas has to surrender, this would stop the violence and then peace depends upon a brokered negotiation including western pressure on Netanyahu. These things are much easier to achieve than the current situation and at least people will stop dying.
Until then I don't know what people expect to happen? Protesters want something that Israel nor the west is ever going to give so acceptance of Hamas is sealing fate.
The only way forwards is to bring sanity back to the table because currently there are two regimes who just want to kill each other so as it stands what is going to change?
I ask about the West Bank because there has been relative peace there for decades and most importantly no Hamas unlike Gaza. What was preventing a settlement between the Palestinians in the West Bank and Israel all these years if Israel is not and has not been at war with authorities in the West Bank for decades?
Hamas is actually on record as willing to accept a Palestinian state on 1967 borders while not necessarily accepting Israel. (See the use of "entity" rather than state.)
But that's more than Netanyahu's party will contemplate about a two-state solution.
Hamas accepts Palestinian state with 1967 borders
Khaled Meshaal presents a new document in which Hamas accepts 1967 borders without recognising state of Israel.
And for those who think that if Hamas "surrendered" (whatever that means) and released all hostages then that would end Israel's actions in Gaza...
(a) if it didn't, what would the USA (and UK) do?
(b) if it did, would it stop settlements in the West Bank?
(c) either way, what do you do about Israel's right (from Likud - "From the river to the sea there will only be Israeli sovereignty" - to those whose Eretz Israel extends east beyond the Jordan) ?
I think it's a bit more complicated than that actually, and there is more possibility for peace than you allow in what you write here. Hamas revised their charter in 2017, indicating an openness to a Palestinian state with the 1967 borders. The exact phrase they used is:
Without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.
Obviously, they're trying to have it both ways with that statement, but it indicates more openness to a political solution than Israel wants us to believe is possible. Interesting, albeit very long, podcast on the history of Hamas from a Palestinian scholar here: https://thedigradio.com/podcast/hamas-w-tareq-baconi/
The other thing that's important to remember is that Hamas isn't the Palestinian people. You can't be like "Hamas doesn't want peace" and think that's the end of the matter. There are other political and civil society organisations that Israel could be talking to if it wanted to. The trouble is it deliberately and systematically marginalised them over decades.
ChicagoBlue
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Keeping it real?
Don't bring that kind of shit to Bluemoon!
Israel is willing to trade Palestinians for Israelis at a rate of 10:1, and the UN just said that Hamas has been shown to have raped (been raping) hostages, and Hamas won’t tell them who and how many are still alive…while Israeli is demanding ALL of them back (shock horror!).
Colour me crazy, but the end seems a fairly straightforward construct, doesn’t it?
cucumberman
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That’s optimistic.
Israel released the Palestinian prisoners during the first ceasefire for that hostage exchange.
But after the prisoner release, so far 4 of the released have been detained again and back to prison.