Middle East Conflict

You just have to laugh when bedroom protesters use the term neo fascists to describe the Israeli government when the exact same term applies equally to their pin up boys, Hamas.
Deciding millions of people are members of Hamas and indiscriminately bombing/shooting/starving them comes across a bit fascist.

I doubt Hamas are anyone's pin up boys at well.

Both sides seem to think they answer to their deity over man and want mutually assured destruction. Whilst people are used as cannon in "gods name"
 
Vice President Harris has called for an immediate ceasefire.

Why hasn't her boss done it?
Looking at the timeline, Biden has been after this for a while but trying to be diplomatic, Netanyahu has taken the piss out of him. The last meeting has now pushed him over the edge, America now doing air drops, using his Vice to get the message out and also having Benny Gantz over for messaging talks against the wishes of the Israeli war cabinet/government.
 
Deciding millions of people are members of Hamas and indiscriminately bombing/shooting/starving them comes across a bit fascist.

I doubt Hamas are anyone's pin up boys at well.

Both sides seem to think they answer to their deity over man and want mutually assured destruction. Whilst people are used as cannon in "gods name"
Unfortunately the ultimate problem is that the Netanyahu government has already said that it will not allow a Palestinian state but you have to ask does Hamas even want a Palestinian state that coexists with Israel? If Israel offered peace and talks to a two-state solution now then would Hamas accept it and release the hostages? Of course it wouldn't.

Hamas and the Netanyahu government are the same, the only difference between them is one is a freedom fighter force with limited means and the other is a nuclear armed state. Swap the two and we'd have the exact same problem in reverse where Hamas would be seeking the destruction of Israel and Tel Aviv would be in ruins instead of Gaza.

The only reason why Hamas is able to fight Israel is via support from other countries such as Iran who would destroy Israel tomorrow if they could. The leader of Iran just for example recently set a target for Iran to destroy Israel within the next 25 years! The only counterbalance to that is the west so the west is stuck in the mud and can't do anything.

This problem doesn't come down to the false narrative painted by Palestine protesters which is just Israel are bastards and Hamas is rightfully fighting them. It actually comes down to the fact that there is no diplomatic solution to the problem because neither will ever ideologically agree.
 
I found this, an interview of Hamas founder Yassin by a reporter from China's Xinhua News Agency in 2003. If anyone is interested, here is the full text (translated by computer).
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Xinhua News Agency, Gaza, June 15 (Reporter Zhou Yijun) In the past five days, Israel has attacked Hamas targets in Gaza City for seven times in a row. Israeli Defense Minister Mofaz announced that all Hamas members, from low-level members to leaders, were the targets of Israeli strikes. Hamas pointed out that Israel had launched a "full-scale war" against them.

At 1pm on the 14th, I suddenly received permission to conduct an interview with Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the founder and spiritual leader of Hamas, at his home in the southern part of Gaza City. Although the local employees who accompanied me were happy to have the opportunity for an interview, they looked mournfully and said, "I really hope they refuse the interview because Yassin is now a target of attack and missiles could fall at any time.

It is said that the security around Yassin's house is very tight, and anyone who approaches the house at night will be warned by shooting. Therefore, in my imagination, Yassin should live in a place similar to a castle. However, after getting off the bus, I found that it was just a few ordinary bungalows, with "armed struggle" and some slogans praising "Hamas" written on the outer walls, and pictures of arrested Palestinians pasted on the door. A few children were playing barefoot around... There was no difference between this place and any Palestinian refugee camp.

The door was small, only half open. A man with a large beard arranged us to wait in a small room on the left side of the entrance. "The Sheikh is in a meeting," he said. "Sheikh" refers to a person with high Islamic knowledge and high prestige in Arabic.

On the 13th, Israeli Prime Minister Sharon's office submitted a proposal to the Palestinian National Authority, proposing that Israel would cease all "clearance" operations against Palestinian militants for three consecutive days, but Palestinian radical organizations must also stop suicide attacks and stop launching rockets into southern Israel. Maybe Yassin is discussing with his men whether to accept the ceasefire?

About half an hour later, four or five men with big beards came out of Yassin's office and shook hands with their colleagues one by one, but they never looked at me. "Hamas doesn't shake hands with women," someone reminded me.

Yasin's office is about 20 square meters, with martyr portraits, photos of the Golden Mosque, a map of the Palestinian-Israeli region, and a large green Hamas flag hanging on the walls. In the row of showcases facing the door, there are open Korans, models of the Golden Mosque, and some books.

Yassin, who is paralyzed in his four limbs, is sitting in a wheelchair in front of the store window. Against the backdrop of the large window, the 67-year-old man looks very thin and small, with his hands hanging limply at his chest. The white clothes, white turban, silver beard, and sharp hook nose make me no longer doubt that the person in front of me is the top leader of Hamas who has repeatedly caused suicide bombings.

Yassin's assistant motioned for us to sit next to the "Sheikh". I was surprised that I could get so close to this "high-risk" person without any prior examination. Didn't the assistants consider his personal safety? Yassin spoke up, and I realized that if the distance exceeded 1 meter, he could not hear what he was saying. Years of imprisonment had damaged his voice. Yassin's voice sounded like a blade scraping on glass, sharp but difficult to hear. His hearing was also severely damaged, and he could not hear the questions without raising his voice.

"Why are you still staying at home? Don't you know that Israel has declared you as a target of attack?" We began the interview like this. Yassin's mouth twitched, almost as if he were smiling. "Why did you come? Aren't you afraid of being attacked?" He asked. The threat of assassination has never daunted us. We are happy to become 'martyrs', which is a good thing, Yassin said.

“Will you accept the ceasefire agreement?” I asked again. Yassin said that Hamas could reach a ceasefire agreement with the Palestinian National Authority on condition, which not only included requiring Israel to stop assassinating Hamas members, but also including restoring the legitimate rights of Palestinians, ending Israel's occupation of Palestinian land, releasing Palestinian prisoners, stopping military attacks on Palestinians, recognizing the “right of return” of Palestinian refugees, and recognizing the sovereignty of Palestinians over Jerusalem. “Israel cannot get a ceasefire agreement without paying a price,” he said.

On the 10th, Hamas spokesman Rantisi was injured by an Israeli missile attack. Hamas subsequently announced the suspension of ceasefire negotiations with the Palestinian National Authority. I asked Yassin, "How much damage has Israel's 'targeted killing' policy caused to Hamas?" "It has not damaged us at all. When one 'Hamas' is killed, there will be thousands of 'Hamas' standing up," Yassin's voice slightly raised. "Hamas represents the Palestinian and Arab public opinion. Neither the United States nor the Palestinian National Authority can ignore our existence. We not only want to protect ourselves, but also the Palestinian people..."

"Protecting the Palestinians? Don't you know that suicide bombings will lead to more violent military retaliation from Israel, which will inevitably lead to the casualties of innocent Palestinians?" "We Palestinians can only use limited means to defend ourselves. We don't have F-16 bombers or Apache armed helicopters... We shouldn't be asked to stop defending ourselves, but to demand Israel to stop aggression. Whether we commit suicide bombings or not, we will be killed by Israel." "Do you mean that 'Hamas' completely represents the Palestinian people?" "At present, we are in the stage of striving for liberation, not competing with the Palestinian National Authority for leadership," Yassin said. "After the establishment of the Palestinian state, the people will decide who will lead them through voting." The ultimate goal of 'Hamas' is to establish an Islamic state.

It is said that Yassin was beaten during his early interrogation by Israel, resulting in amblyopia in his right eye. However, his blue-grey eyes are only slightly cloudy, and there is no sign of eye disease. Sometimes he looks up and his lips are slightly open, with a very dull look in his eyes; sometimes his eyes are extremely flexible, emitting a cold light, and these two expressions alternate on his face.

“How much damage has suicide bombing caused to Israel?” “The key is not how many Israelis have been killed, but rather creating 'equal' panic among Israelis. Suicide bombing has hit the Israeli economy and made Israelis realize that Sharon has not brought them security, which is the only way to finally enable Palestinians to obtain their due rights.”

"When you see the scenes of Israeli women and children killed in suicide attacks on TV, how do you feel?" Yassin paused, looked ahead and sighed. "We feel pain when we see any women and children bleeding," he said. "Islam does not allow killing innocent people. But why is the world silent about the killing of our women and children by Jews? If the world helps restore the rights of Palestinians, we can stop all suicide attacks." He added that as long as Israel persists in its aggressive policy, it is not excluded that more suicide attacks will occur in the future.

Yassin said that Hamas is not willing to confront the Palestinian National Authority, but it will never hand over weapons as required by Israel. "Prime Minister Abbas has made efforts, but his efforts have been rejected. For the Palestinians to hand over weapons for self-defense means surrender."

Yassin expressed his views on the "road map" plan and the mediation efforts made by Egyptian officials to achieve a ceasefire. Finally, I asked him, "Is President Bush's call to cut off Hamas' economic sources worrying you?" Yassin pursed his lips and sneered, "Let's wait and see what happens when he cuts it off."
 
Unfortunately the ultimate problem is that the Netanyahu government has already said that it will not allow a Palestinian state but you have to ask does Hamas even want a Palestinian state that coexists with Israel? If Israel offered peace and talks to a two-state solution now then would Hamas accept it and release the hostages? Of course it wouldn't.

Hamas and the Netanyahu government are the same, the only difference between them is one is a freedom fighter force with limited means and the other is a nuclear armed state. Swap the two and we'd have the exact same problem in reverse where Hamas would be seeking the destruction of Israel and Tel Aviv would be in ruins instead of Gaza.

The only reason why Hamas is able to fight Israel is via support from other countries such as Iran who would destroy Israel tomorrow if they could. The leader of Iran just for example recently set a target for Iran to destroy Israel within the next 25 years! The only counterbalance to that is the west so the west is stuck in the mud and can't do anything.

This problem doesn't come down to the false narrative painted by Palestine protesters which is just Israel are bastards and Hamas is rightfully fighting them. It actually comes down to the fact that there is no diplomatic solution to the problem because neither will ever ideologically agree.
What a depressing post but sadly faultless in it's logic and insight.
 
Unfortunately the ultimate problem is that the Netanyahu government has already said that it will not allow a Palestinian state but you have to ask does Hamas even want a Palestinian state that coexists with Israel? If Israel offered peace and talks to a two-state solution now then would Hamas accept it and release the hostages? Of course it wouldn't.

Hamas and the Netanyahu government are the same, the only difference between them is one is a freedom fighter force with limited means and the other is a nuclear armed state. Swap the two and we'd have the exact same problem in reverse where Hamas would be seeking the destruction of Israel and Tel Aviv would be in ruins instead of Gaza.

The only reason why Hamas is able to fight Israel is via support from other countries such as Iran who would destroy Israel tomorrow if they could. The leader of Iran just for example recently set a target for Iran to destroy Israel within the next 25 years! The only counterbalance to that is the west so the west is stuck in the mud and can't do anything.

This problem doesn't come down to the false narrative painted by Palestine protesters which is just Israel are bastards and Hamas is rightfully fighting them. It actually comes down to the fact that there is no diplomatic solution to the problem because neither will ever ideologically agree.

Ain’t this the truth!
 
Unfortunately the ultimate problem is that the Netanyahu government has already said that it will not allow a Palestinian state but you have to ask does Hamas even want a Palestinian state that coexists with Israel? If Israel offered peace and talks to a two-state solution now then would Hamas accept it and release the hostages? Of course it wouldn't.

Hamas and the Netanyahu government are the same, the only difference between them is one is a freedom fighter force with limited means and the other is a nuclear armed state. Swap the two and we'd have the exact same problem in reverse where Hamas would be seeking the destruction of Israel and Tel Aviv would be in ruins instead of Gaza.

The only reason why Hamas is able to fight Israel is via support from other countries such as Iran who would destroy Israel tomorrow if they could. The leader of Iran just for example recently set a target for Iran to destroy Israel within the next 25 years! The only counterbalance to that is the west so the west is stuck in the mud and can't do anything.

This problem doesn't come down to the false narrative painted by Palestine protesters which is just Israel are bastards and Hamas is rightfully fighting them. It actually comes down to the fact that there is no diplomatic solution to the problem because neither will ever ideologically agree.

This doesn’t explain why the West Bank is still in turmoil if Hamas is not the ruling entity. Why have the PLO and the Israel government not been able to reach terms?
 
Surely if Hamas surrendered and gave up the hostages the war and killing would be over? What nationality are Hamas? So perhap you could also write,
I can't believe just how evil Hamas and their supporters are. non stop fuckin murdering and now they are trying to take all the food and starve the innocent Palestinians to death.

A bit of balance always helps.
We know how evil Hamas are its been done to death. Now I'm pointing out the Genocide and how evil the Israelis are for murdering Tens of thousands of Women & Children. For good measure they are now trying to starve the rest.
 
This doesn’t explain why the West Bank is still in turmoil if Hamas is not the ruling entity. Why have the PLO and the Israel government not been able to reach terms?
Doesn't this sum up the problem? The Palestinian cause itself is not clear because it is fractured by two different parties, one of which is willing to murder Israeli's to the complete detriment of its own population. You could argue well the Palestinians suffer anyway but their situation now is infinitely worse thanks to the actions of Hamas.

You only have to view it in this lens really, why would Israel ever consider any talks at all with anyone whilst Hamas holds Israeli hostages in Gaza? I still think the way forward is clear, Hamas has to give up the hostages and surrender, following that Israel will have no choice but to stop the violence.

If Hamas is unwilling to surrender then I don't really know where this is going to go other than the violence will continue, it's surely then just a question of how much violence by Israel is deemed proportionate? Either way people will still die, it just might be less of them which is hardly a solution.
 
Doesn't this sum up the problem? The Palestinian cause itself is not clear because it is fractured by two different parties, one of which is willing to murder Israeli's to the complete detriment of its own population. You could argue well the Palestinians suffer anyway but their situation now is infinitely worse thanks to the actions of Hamas.

You only have to view it in this lens really, why would Israel ever consider any talks at all with anyone whilst Hamas holds Israeli hostages in Gaza? I still think the way forward is clear, Hamas has to give up the hostages and surrender, following that Israel will have no choice but to stop the violence.

If Hamas is unwilling to surrender then I don't really know where this is going to go other than the violence will continue, it's surely then just a question of how much violence by Israel is deemed proportionate? Either way people will still die, it just might be less of them which is hardly a solution.

The PLO has recognized Israel’s right to exist and publicly denounced terrorism so much so that they are dubbed as security subcontractors for the IDF. Why didn’t the Israeli government come to a final settlement with the PLO in the West Bank? Just cause Hamas exists in Gaza I don’t see why the Israeli government didn’t just go ahead and discuss a truce with Palestinians under the PLO. One could argue that doing so would further disempower Hamas by showing the world but most importantly Palestinians that Israel and Palestinians can coexist while rogue actors such as Hamas are the obstacle. Instead we see rising violence in the West Bank and a growing pro Hamas sentiment in the West Bank…
 
The PLO has recognized Israel’s right to exist and publicly denounced terrorism so much so that they are dubbed as security subcontractors for the IDF. Why didn’t the Israeli government come to a final settlement with the PLO in the West Bank? Just cause Hamas exists in Gaza I don’t see why the Israeli government didn’t just go ahead and discuss a truce with Palestinians under the PLO. One could argue that doing so would further disempower Hamas by showing the world but most importantly Palestinians that Israel and Palestinians can coexist while rogue actors such as Hamas are the obstacle. Instead we see rising violence in the West Bank and a growing pro Hamas sentiment in the West Bank…
Is Israel at war with the authorities in the West Bank? Hamas has to surrender, this would stop the violence and then peace depends upon a brokered negotiation including western pressure on Netanyahu. These things are much easier to achieve than the current situation and at least people will stop dying.

Until then I don't know what people expect to happen? Protesters want something that Israel nor the west is ever going to give so acceptance of Hamas is sealing fate.

The only way forwards is to bring sanity back to the table because currently there are two regimes who just want to kill each other so as it stands what is going to change?
 
Is Israel at war with the authorities in the West Bank? Hamas has to surrender, this would stop the violence and then peace depends upon a brokered negotiation including western pressure on Netanyahu. These things are much easier to achieve than the current situation and at least people will stop dying.

Until then I don't know what people expect to happen? Protesters want something that Israel nor the west is ever going to give so acceptance of Hamas is sealing fate.

The only way forwards is to bring sanity back to the table because currently there are two regimes who just want to kill each other so as it stands what is going to change?

I ask about the West Bank because there has been relative peace there for decades and most importantly no Hamas unlike Gaza. What was preventing a settlement between the Palestinians in the West Bank and Israel all these years if Israel is not and has not been at war with authorities in the West Bank for decades?
 
Unfortunately the ultimate problem is that the Netanyahu government has already said that it will not allow a Palestinian state but you have to ask does Hamas even want a Palestinian state that coexists with Israel? If Israel offered peace and talks to a two-state solution now then would Hamas accept it and release the hostages? Of course it wouldn't.
Hamas is actually on record as willing to accept a Palestinian state on 1967 borders while not necessarily accepting Israel. (See the use of "entity" rather than state.)

But that's more than Netanyahu's party will contemplate about a two-state solution.


And for those who think that if Hamas "surrendered" (whatever that means) and released all hostages then that would end Israel's actions in Gaza...
(a) if it didn't, what would the USA (and UK) do?
(b) if it did, would it stop settlements in the West Bank?
(c) either way, what do you do about Israel's right (from Likud - "From the river to the sea there will only be Israeli sovereignty" - to those whose Eretz Israel extends east beyond the Jordan) ?
 
Unfortunately the ultimate problem is that the Netanyahu government has already said that it will not allow a Palestinian state but you have to ask does Hamas even want a Palestinian state that coexists with Israel? If Israel offered peace and talks to a two-state solution now then would Hamas accept it and release the hostages? Of course it wouldn't.

Hamas and the Netanyahu government are the same, the only difference between them is one is a freedom fighter force with limited means and the other is a nuclear armed state. Swap the two and we'd have the exact same problem in reverse where Hamas would be seeking the destruction of Israel and Tel Aviv would be in ruins instead of Gaza.

The only reason why Hamas is able to fight Israel is via support from other countries such as Iran who would destroy Israel tomorrow if they could. The leader of Iran just for example recently set a target for Iran to destroy Israel within the next 25 years! The only counterbalance to that is the west so the west is stuck in the mud and can't do anything.

This problem doesn't come down to the false narrative painted by Palestine protesters which is just Israel are bastards and Hamas is rightfully fighting them. It actually comes down to the fact that there is no diplomatic solution to the problem because neither will ever ideologically agree.
I think it's a bit more complicated than that actually, and there is more possibility for peace than you allow in what you write here. Hamas revised their charter in 2017, indicating an openness to a Palestinian state with the 1967 borders. The exact phrase they used is:

Without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.

Obviously, they're trying to have it both ways with that statement, but it indicates more openness to a political solution than Israel wants us to believe is possible. Interesting, albeit very long, podcast on the history of Hamas from a Palestinian scholar here: https://thedigradio.com/podcast/hamas-w-tareq-baconi/

The other thing that's important to remember is that Hamas isn't the Palestinian people. You can't be like "Hamas doesn't want peace" and think that's the end of the matter. There are other political and civil society organisations that Israel could be talking to if it wanted to. The trouble is it deliberately and systematically marginalised them over decades.
 
Doesn't this sum up the problem? The Palestinian cause itself is not clear because it is fractured by two different parties, one of which is willing to murder Israeli's to the complete detriment of its own population. You could argue well the Palestinians suffer anyway but their situation now is infinitely worse thanks to the actions of Hamas.

You only have to view it in this lens really, why would Israel ever consider any talks at all with anyone whilst Hamas holds Israeli hostages in Gaza? I still think the way forward is clear, Hamas has to give up the hostages and surrender, following that Israel will have no choice but to stop the violence.

If Hamas is unwilling to surrender then I don't really know where this is going to go other than the violence will continue, it's surely then just a question of how much violence by Israel is deemed proportionate? Either way people will still die, it just might be less of them which is hardly a solution.
Keeping it real?
Don't bring that kind of shit to Bluemoon!

Israel is willing to trade Palestinians for Israelis at a rate of 10:1, and the UN just said that Hamas has been shown to have raped (been raping) hostages, and Hamas won’t tell them who and how many are still alive…while Israeli is demanding ALL of them back (shock horror!).

Colour me crazy, but the end seems a fairly straightforward construct, doesn’t it?
 

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