Middle East Conflict

[Ducado]

Can I just interject on the lobbying, some of the best and most influential lobby groups are for Middle East Arab states and lets not forget the malign influence of Tufton Street, not a Jew or Jewish interest, that Israel has an influential lobby group should come as no surprise, nearly everyone has!

There is lot said about the Jewish vote int he US but it's actually not that important, what is important are the votes of millions of unhinged Christians who believe in some end times prophecy to do with the messiah and Israel, the bizarre thing is they think when the time comes they will be converting them to their brand of christianity

In fact many Jews are quite Centre Left (that why Corbyn was such a tragedy for the Labour party) and in the US many vote for the Democrats

 

[Bluemoon_420]

It is on record the extent to which Israel goes in order to minimise civilian casualties.

If you believe that, then I have some magic beans you’ll be interested in!

 

[Brewster's millions]

I think you are peddling stereotypes yourself. I've worked for Government and skilled lobbyists is an important role. If you are doubting that the Friends of Israel etc are good at lobbying then you are deluded.

It would be easy to ignore sensitive issues and give free rein to knuckle draggers.

It’s very clear what you wrote - Sunak somehow owing Israel because of what you believe Jewish lobbyists to have done. There’s no delusion there.

Clearly you need to keep your guard up a bit as you’ve made it all a bit too obvious this time around.

I also like the way you throw the knuckle dragger reference into the mix. You really shouldn’t kid yourself here as there’s nothing sophisticated or enlightened about rolling out the sort of stereotypes you’ve used here.

 

[bluemoon1981]

Hamas is 30-40,000 fighters and maybe 2x that in hangers on in a population of 2.4million.

They are such a tiny minority that if you offered the people of Gaza a choice between Hamas and freedom, secure boundaries, hospitals, food, power etc then there’s only one winner and it’s not Hamas, they’d be a tiny minority overnight and all but gone in a few years.

You have to offer people an alternative if you want them to abandon someone - after all that’s how Israel got rid of the PLO.

Remember the median age in Gaza is 18. The last election in Gaza was 17 years ago.

I agree with your general sentiment but like others have asked how is it implemented? Israel has tried. People forget that the area of Gaza was occupied by both Egypt and the Arab League, both of whom did not give a shit, allowing it to fester into an area with deep roots into terrorism. There was then a war in the late 1960s, Israel took it over, gave Gazans the freedom to self govern and gave them jobs as a starting point. I fully accept that not everything was roses but it was a decent starting point from which they could have prospered.

The minority (and I accept it is a small number of the whole population but it is not insignificant) of the population that you mention started killing their own because they did not subscribe to the idea that arabs can work for israelis. Israel gave them gas, water, medical supplies. Israel gave them the tools and resources they needed to build. Israel helped them build schools, hospitals, medical training, nobody mentions any of this. As the occupiers/owners/landlords (take your pick) of the land following appalling Arab occupiers/owners/landlords (take your pick), Israel had done an exceptional amount for Gazans.

So I totally agree with you, it is better to give the tools to prosper as a way forward, but people don't realize that Israel tried that. People only see the current situation. People compare the quality of life of Gazans to Israelis and assume that Israel must be the oppressor because of this nonsense of occupied land, which is nonsense given the actual history for why Gaza is 'occupied'.

Why did it not work? In any society you end up with extremism. In my view Israel has similar mentality problems with its Ultra Ultra Orthodox Jewish population so Gazans are not alone. The issue is when it gets out of control and those extremists take control of the society, they influence the way society thinks, people are then too afraid to speak up and then just turn a blind eye provided they are allowed to get on with their lives. They influence children, teachings at school, allowing a new generation of society born into hatred on propaganda. But that thinking is very short term and the long term damage is what people now see before them.

Israel has tried multiple times to deal with the extremism in Gaza. It probably had hoped that Gazans could deal with it themselves given the jobs and resources they were given but for what ever reason they haven't. Nobody else in the world would help and in my view the UN could have been pivotal here but failed.

Personally I think it could have worked had the Arab Nations and rest of the world got more involved to help Gazans deal with the extremists in their society at the time in the 70s when Israel gave them jobs and resources. They didn't and it was allowed to get out of control.

An event horizon has now been reached where extremists have too large a grip on Gazan society and the society as a whole has outstripped available resources. Totally dire and sad but a misconception that alternatives have not been tried before.

Sadly in this area it is a religious issue. Until the Muslim Nations around Israel accept its existence and do not continue to fund the terrorists, the Palestinians will forever be in this vicious cycle. They will be given resources to prosper (as they have been given multiple times) but they never will because extreme ideologies will continue to cripple them.

 

[Bluemoon_420]

The population of Gaza has increased fourfold within the past three to four decades. So where is the proof of ethnic cleansing?
Egypt is a sovereign state. What is their reason for refusing the Palestinians the right to return home?

50 villages wiped out and 700,000 Palestinians displaced and that was just during the Nakba. But yeah just ignore the very definition of Ethnic cleansing.

It’s not Egypt that refuse the right of return for Palestinian refugees, want to take a guess who does?

Your ignorance on this subject is clear and obvious for all to see. Not taking the piss, but I suggest you do some reading up on the history from both sides perspective.

 

[Pelegrinni]

50 villages wiped out and 700,000 Palestinians displaced and that was just during the Nakba. But yeah just ignore the very definition of Ethnic cleansing.

It’s not Egypt that refuse the right of return for Palestinian refugees, want to take a guess who does?

Your ignorance on this subject is clear and obvious for all to see. Not taking the piss, but I suggest you do some reading up on the history from both sides perspective.

On the subject of the Nakba, who asked those Palestinians to leave and why?

 

[The Stockport Iniesta]

Very good points, it's what comes after and not one person is actually talking about it

The options I have read are pretty extreme, some in Israel would like to completely depopulate Gaza and just annex the land, but that would only work if someone would take 2 million refugees they won't mainly because of this that's why the border with Egypt is so tightly controlled

Or occupy the strip, but there would be ongoing attacks and they would be responsible for 2 million people,

Destroy it then withdraw? Sod the civilians

Would a peacekeeping force under the banner of the UN be possible in the aftermath? I wouldn't use western troops, but would the likes of Egypt, Saudi, Jordan be willing to undertake such a mission?

 

[BlueAnorak]

I see Hamas has ordered its population to stay in their homes.
(The subrext being that they have to be human shields for Hamas ffghters).

 

[Ducado]

Would a peacekeeping force under the banner of the UN be possible in the aftermath? I wouldn't use western troops, but would the likes of Egypt, Saudi, Jordan be willing to undertake such a mission?

I doubt it, they would all like Hamas to be removed, who wouldn't but I doubt they can be removed without causing massive casualties, I don't have any answers really, it's no good the PA taking over they are not liked by ordinary Palestinians as they are weak corrupt and generally ineffective, I mean the Israelis could try and have a go and try and run the place, but they would be an army of occupation

What it really needs is the world to wake up and recognise the problem and try and come up with a solution, and you know with some shuffling about of borders an effective Palestinian state could thrive as well as Israel, can you imagine all this destructive energy turned into creative energy?

 

[BlueAnorak]

Would a peacekeeping force under the banner of the UN be possible in the aftermath? I wouldn't use western troops, but would the likes of Egypt, Saudi, Jordan be willing to undertake such a mission?

A laudable idea,
But of course, Isreal wouldn't let them in unless they stopped nutters targetting Isreal.
And thus, what government in their right mind would allow their soldiers (people) to be targets for Hamas nutters who would claim their soildiers are proxies for Isreal and thus become targets for said nutters.
The whole thing is a gigantic conundrum with no acceptable solution.