I highly doubt that the operational aims will be met i.e to wipe Hmas from the face of the earth without killing 100s of thousand civilians which will further exacerbate the problems as well as the appalling behavior of the settler movement on the West Bank and igniting a regional conflict
Rather than people arguing about who was in the land first or the religion or ethnicity, there should be bucket loads of empathy for the civilians of both sides who just want to live in peace, yes lets wipe out Hamas may they go to hell, but can we also wipe out the settler movement in the West Bank that is just pouring fuel on the fire
I think the Irish analogy is very pertinent especially about how compromise can bring an end to violence, despite the bloody past (and there is 100s of years of it)PB, you are a contributor on many subjects in here that I always read with great interest and I have the utmost respect for, because I feel you deal in fact and don’t hypothesise on stuff you don’t know.
You usually say , you don’t know or don’t have sufficient information.
I would never suppose to have a better understanding of the region than people in here who have a vested first hand interest.
To me, I think the original idea of, a land without people for a people without land, was a noble but flawed concept from the start. There never was a land without people.
You can argue over a few millennia of history of who inhabited the land at any given time, but I always think if you displace one set of people and give their land to another you are setting up a whole load of future trouble.
If you go back a few centuries in Northern Ireland you will find the same thing with ‘The Plantations’, where Presbyterian Ulster Scots were enticed into NI and given the Catholic farmlands.
You also had the Penal Laws at the time where Catholics basically had no rights at all. It was in effect a clearing of the land.
It caused centuries of trouble all the way up to the present day.
I’m of the firm view that we are where we are and should acknowledge collectively all wrongs of the past, learn from the mistakes and find a way to live with a collective purpose going forward. Look for ways to unite rather than divide. Personally I thinking taking religion out of the equation is a step forward in rational thinking on a solution.
We had our chance for peace and we voted on the GFA, and I’ve defended this so many times in various threads. I know what I voted for and I knew what the consequences were. I voted to remove our claim of the six counties out of our constitution.
The point that should be loud and clear concerning the peaceful settlement of the region is, that it will never happen with right wing leadership on both sides solving everything with violence. Violence solves nothing but gives short term satisfaction of revenge.
I know Israel have the right to respond to what happened last week, but I would have a greater respect and see them as different to what they abhor, if they chose to act lawfully.
The only way forward, no matter how unlikely it seems now, is for true moderate leadership to emerge on both sides and dialogue to start with a clear honest agenda for accepting nothing but peace.
We won’t hold our breaths though, unfortunately.
The way things are progressing I genuinely fear we are being asked globally to pick a side because there is trouble coming that will snowball and involve a wider conflict. It could get so out of hand so very quickly.
Someone else wouldn't avoid the question ineptly as that babbling bufoon though I'm betting.In fairness whoever was in place would say the same thing or something very similar.
Fantastic post. The tit for tat, he said she said crap has to endPB, you are a contributor on many subjects in here that I always read with great interest and I have the utmost respect for, because I feel you deal in fact and don’t hypothesise on stuff you don’t know.
You usually say , you don’t know or don’t have sufficient information.
I would never suppose to have a better understanding of the region than people in here who have a vested first hand interest.
To me, I think the original idea of, a land without people for a people without land, was a noble but flawed concept from the start. There never was a land without people.
You can argue over a few millennia of history of who inhabited the land at any given time, but I always think if you displace one set of people and give their land to another you are setting up a whole load of future trouble.
If you go back a few centuries in Northern Ireland you will find the same thing with ‘The Plantations’, where Presbyterian Ulster Scots were enticed into NI and given the Catholic farmlands.
You also had the Penal Laws at the time where Catholics basically had no rights at all. It was in effect a clearing of the land.
It caused centuries of trouble all the way up to the present day.
I’m of the firm view that we are where we are and should acknowledge collectively all wrongs of the past, learn from the mistakes and find a way to live with a collective purpose going forward. Look for ways to unite rather than divide. Personally I thinking taking religion out of the equation is a step forward in rational thinking on a solution.
We had our chance for peace and we voted on the GFA, and I’ve defended this so many times in various threads. I know what I voted for and I knew what the consequences were. I voted to remove our claim of the six counties out of our constitution.
The point that should be loud and clear concerning the peaceful settlement of the region is, that it will never happen with right wing leadership on both sides solving everything with violence. Violence solves nothing but gives short term satisfaction of revenge.
I know Israel have the right to respond to what happened last week, but I would have a greater respect and see them as different to what they abhor, if they chose to act lawfully.
The only way forward, no matter how unlikely it seems now, is for true moderate leadership to emerge on both sides and dialogue to start with a clear honest agenda for accepting nothing but peace.
We won’t hold our breaths though, unfortunately.
The way things are progressing I genuinely fear we are being asked globally to pick a side because there is trouble coming that will snowball and involve a wider conflict. It could get so out of hand so very quickly.
Blueinsa, I don’t know what you do, I don’t know you at all except for the few very civil conversations we’ve ad in here on various subjects, whether we agree or not.Absolutely there is consideration from the whole world about innocent civilians.
Israel and the IDF have issued warnings to these civilians to get out of what they deem is now an active battle zone. I appreciate the difficulty in that for many but the warning was and still is being given.
Hamas won’t come out into the open to fight the IDF, they will use innocent civilians as human shields as it adds to their political capitol and last Saturday, no such warnings where given to innocent Israeli civilians.
It’s an horrific situation for everyone involved.
Right or wrong and I firmly believe it right, Israel has decided to try and wipe Hamas out and won’t stop until they believe they have achieved that military goal. Sadly, Gaza will not be recognisable when they have finished, many many more will be dead on both sides but nothing is going to stop what is about to happen other than a Hamas ceasefire and the return of hostages and that simply will not happen.
My opinion is that lies with Hamas and its cowardly terrorist attacks.
Someone else wouldn't avoid the question ineptly as that babbling bufoon though I'm betting.
"I appreciate the difficulty in that..."Absolutely there is consideration from the whole world about innocent civilians.
Israel and the IDF have issued warnings to these civilians to get out of what they deem is now an active battle zone. I appreciate the difficulty in that for many but the warning was and still is being given.
Hamas won’t come out into the open to fight the IDF, they will use innocent civilians as human shields as it adds to their political capitol and last Saturday, no such warnings where given to innocent Israeli civilians.
It’s an horrific situation for everyone involved.
Right or wrong and I firmly believe it right, Israel has decided to try and wipe Hamas out and won’t stop until they believe they have achieved that military goal. Sadly, Gaza will not be recognisable when they have finished, many many more will be dead on both sides but nothing is going to stop what is about to happen other than a Hamas ceasefire and the return of hostages and that simply will not happen.
My opinion is that lies with Hamas and its cowardly terrorist attacks.
Blueinsa, I don’t know what you do, I don’t know you at all except for the few very civil conversations we’ve ad in here on various subjects, whether we agree or not.
But myself personally, I’ll tell you that even without any logistical knowledge or technical abilities worth mentioning, I can see a problem with telling 1.2 million people to move out within 24 hours.
Particularly when you’ve cut off power to the country, fresh water supply too and already commenced bombing their infrastructure.
I’m sceptical of the Israeli government intent being anything other than justification in advance for what they know will be unjustifiable and unlawful.
I hope I’m wrong , but I think we are seeing it unfold that way.
Unfortunately you’re not wrong Hilts.What justifiable action would you expect? and remember you have to put yourself in their shoes. Turning the other cheek was obviously a no go and I believe if what's going to happen happens it will be catastrophic not only for the innocent civilians in the area but for other countries as well.
I think once Saturday happened this has followed an inevitable path. If there is a way out I have yet to hear it. It's easier to say what people shouldn't do but coming up with a solution needs to follow. I believe an unimaginable amount of people will continue to die. I don't see it going any other way. I hope I'm very wrong.
What justifiable action would you expect? and remember you have to put yourself in their shoes. Turning the other cheek was obviously a no go and I believe if what's going to happen happens it will be catastrophic not only for the innocent civilians in the area but for other countries as well.
I think once Saturday happened this has followed an inevitable path. If there is a way out I have yet to hear it. It's easier to say what people shouldn't do but coming up with a solution needs to follow. I believe an unimaginable amount of people will continue to die. I don't see it going any other way. I hope I'm very wrong.