Middle East Conflict

goalmole said:
The two state solution is dead thanks to the settlement building which has all but obliterated any semblance of a Palestinian territory. What you have is islands of Palestinian communities in a sea of Israeli settlements.
Two solutions left IMO, either integrate the whole of the Palestinian population into Israel giving them full citizenship with full democratic rights or maintain the status quo of an apartheid system with all the Palestinians herded into tiny bantustans enclosed by walls and fences and watch them seethe and fester before the inevitable uprising and the inevitable retaliation.
The problem needs a wise and courageous solution from the Israelis to break this cycle of tit for tat violence otherwise this dispute is going to take Israel, and the world, somewhere nobody wants it to go.
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Where have you been for the last 7 years? Missile after missile fired into isreal from Gaza. Only a very exprnsive anti missile system stops Isreali cities and settlements burning.
 
bluemoon1981 said:
I agree with your general sentiment but like others have asked how is it implemented? Israel has tried. People forget that the area of Gaza was occupied by both Egypt and the Arab League, both of whom did not give a shit, allowing it to fester into an area with deep roots into terrorism. There was then a war in the late 1960s, Israel took it over, gave Gazans the freedom to self govern and gave them jobs as a starting point. I fully accept that not everything was roses but it was a decent starting point from which they could have prospered.

The minority (and I accept it is a small number of the whole population but it is not insignificant) of the population that you mention started killing their own because they did not subscribe to the idea that arabs can work for israelis. Israel gave them gas, water, medical supplies. Israel gave them the tools and resources they needed to build. Israel helped them build schools, hospitals, medical training, nobody mentions any of this. As the occupiers/owners/landlords (take your pick) of the land following appalling Arab occupiers/owners/landlords (take your pick), Israel had done an exceptional amount for Gazans.

So I totally agree with you, it is better to give the tools to prosper as a way forward, but people don't realize that Israel tried that. People only see the current situation. People compare the quality of life of Gazans to Israelis and assume that Israel must be the oppressor because of this nonsense of occupied land, which is nonsense given the actual history for why Gaza is 'occupied'.

Why did it not work? In any society you end up with extremism. In my view Israel has similar mentality problems with its Ultra Ultra Orthodox Jewish population so Gazans are not alone. The issue is when it gets out of control and those extremists take control of the society, they influence the way society thinks, people are then too afraid to speak up and then just turn a blind eye provided they are allowed to get on with their lives. They influence children, teachings at school, allowing a new generation of society born into hatred on propaganda. But that thinking is very short term and the long term damage is what people now see before them.

Israel has tried multiple times to deal with the extremism in Gaza. It probably had hoped that Gazans could deal with it themselves given the jobs and resources they were given but for what ever reason they haven't. Nobody else in the world would help and in my view the UN could have been pivotal here but failed.

Personally I think it could have worked had the Arab Nations and rest of the world got more involved to help Gazans deal with the extremists in their society at the time in the 70s when Israel gave them jobs and resources. They didn't and it was allowed to get out of control.

An event horizon has now been reached where extremists have too large a grip on Gazan society and the society as a whole has outstripped available resources. Totally dire and sad but a misconception that alternatives have not been tried before.

Sadly in this area it is a religious issue. Until the Muslim Nations around Israel accept its existence and do not continue to fund the terrorists, the Palestinians will forever be in this vicious cycle. They will be given resources to prosper (as they have been given multiple times) but they never will because extreme ideologies will continue to cripple them.
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Good post.

I actually think the bit underlined is why the terror attacks happened last weekend.

Saudi Arabia did seem to want to work more closely with Israel and whether it was Hamas, Hamas with help from Hezbollah or/and Iran, they weren’t having any of that. So they sent rockets into Israel and kidnapped and killed a loads of people in their homes, knowing a retaliation from Israel could scupper the breakthrough that Saudi Arabia have tried to get going for the region.
 
Bluesince1979 said:
I would say you have a better handle on this to be honest. Youve lived through something more similar to this situation than most. As you say, the likes of john hume, the queen shaking hands with martin mcguinness, mcguinness and paisley becoming friends… what huge people they all were. Amazing really
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Well yes and no. To be honest, our experience down in Dublin pales into insignificance compared to those that lived through it in Belfast, Derry and all.

But yes I am glad to have gotten an opportunity to vote on something so significant in my lifetime. And to see it make a difference.
As I repeatedly say in here, I knew exactly what I was voting for and the implications of it to our constitution etc.
I don’t think Unionism in the North should take that compromise lightly as I see it as a guarantee of their rights that I don’t think we would allow be taken away no matter what any British government might do.

I sometimes feel they are more likely to be sold out by Westminster than Dublin.

But that’s a totally different discussion and let’s keep it with Palestine/Israel.

It’s a different situation but let’s learn from the similarities.
 
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