Middle East Conflict

[Ohrodneyrodney]

You asked me why the UN focuses on actions in Palestine whilst failing to do so in Syria. That is the very definition of a straw man. We can go into a group chat whilst I explain the concept to both of you if you want? It's not exactly rocket science.

It absolutely is not the definition of a straw man. A straw man argument is based on a fallacy. What is happening in Syria is not a fallacy. You're right its not rocket science.

 

[Irwell]

It absolutely is not the definition of a straw man. A straw man argument is based on a fallacy. What is happening in Syria is not a fallacy. You're right its not rocket science.

The fallacy is that X > Y does not mean that Y is unworthy of discussion.

 

[Ohrodneyrodney]

The fallacy is that X > Y does not mean that Y is unworthy of discussion.

And neither X, Y or Z = straw man.

 

[west didsblue]

You asked me why the UN focuses on actions in Palestine whilst failing to do so in Syria. That is the very definition of a straw man. We can go into a group chat whilst I explain the concept to both of you if you want? It's not exactly rocket science.

You were trying to use a UN agency justify your point. I was questioning the credibility of that UN agency and explained why and you refused to answer my question. I suggest you look up the definition of straw man as you use the term a lot and it would make sense for you to have a better understanding of what it means otherwise you’ll carry on looking foolish.
I’ll ask again, why do you think that UN agency focuses disproportionately on Israel?

 

[west didsblue]

So you think excusing the state-sanctioned murder of 100,000 people is different to excusing the state-sanctioned murder of 6 million? As abhorrent as the state-sanctioned murder of 6 million people will always be, I can't simply overlook the 100,000 just because it is a smaller number and was spread over a longer period.

Except it’s nowhere near 100,000 and of those killed, a tiny proportion of them were murdered.

 

[Ohrodneyrodney]

You were trying to use a UN agency justify your point. I was questioning the credibility of that UN agency and explained why and you refused to answer my question. I suggest you look up the definition of straw man as you use the term a lot and it would make sense for you to have a better understanding of what it means otherwise you’ll carry on looking foolish.
I’ll ask again, why do you think that UN agency focuses disproportionately on Israel?

I think we are flogging a really dead horse here mate. He simply cannot answer the question because it wouldn't suit whatever narrative he is working to.

 

[Irwell]

You were trying to use a UN agency justify your point. I was questioning the credibility of that UN agency and explained why and you refused to answer my question. I suggest you look up the definition of straw man as you use the term a lot and it would make sense for you to have a better understanding of what it means otherwise you’ll carry on looking foolish.

That matches exactly with what I was saying earlier. X > Y therefore why are they investigating Y. Straw man. At no point did I say that Syria shouldn't be investigated, but that doesn't in and of itself make the UN agency findings meaningless.

I’ll ask again, why do you think that UN agency focuses disproportionately on Israel?

Maybe because, as I said in the America gun control thread, people expect more of a 'western' nation. Someone has to set the benchmark, and I'd rather that benchmark doesn't involve border police shooting children.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Absolutely right. Netanyahu and his right wing government and Hamas both need the conflict to keep going to make themselves relevant and keep them in power. All cunts.

There's a very good 'Big Read' article in the Financial Times on Gaza and it explains a lot of the complex background to this that most of the mainstream media miss.

One of the issues is that the Palestinians have two completely different organisations representing them. Hamas, an Islamist and militant group rule Gaza and the more secular, less militant Palestinian Authority the West Bank. They're both engaged in a battle for hearts and minds and Hamas see the protests (and the publicity that the deaths bring) as a key weapon in that battle.

Another factor is that Hamas have been funded by Qatar for a good while, possibly to the tune of $1bn over the last few years. But Qatar is the bete noire of the Arab world and is ostracised by many Arab states, notably Saudi & the UAE, as well as Egypt. In Egypt, the El-Sisi military government has taken a stand against militant Islamists and ousted the Muslim Brotherhood from power. Egypt is fighting a vicious insurgency war in northern Sinai against Islamists, including Hamas. So Egypt has closed its border with Gaza and in fact demanded that Israel reduce the supply of electricity to the area. Ismail Haniye, the Hamas leader has recently started to talk to Egypt and that didn't go down well in Qatar, who shut off the supply of dollars to Gaza. So Hamas, without Qatari funds and with the tunnels used for smuggling destroyed, was squeezed and decided to take their chances with Egypt, although to no effect so far. They didn't see why they should be what they saw as the innocent victim in the stand-off in the Arab world and the protests have increased their visibility and engendered heightened sympathy for them. So, in this way, they hope that they can ensure the resumption of funding from Qatar while still having a relationship wit Egypt.

On the Israeli side, the scale of the protests have had the effect of uniting many factions there, from the extreme to the more liberal. There was a genuine fear among the majority (which would normally be split on Israeli actions towards Palestinians) about what would happen if the protestors breached the fence. So Netanyahu had to act or risk unrest among his own electorate.

Protestors were told that there was an exclusion zone within 300m of the border fence and anyone in that zone or attacking the fence itself, was liable to be shot. Hamas members effectively made themselves martyrs by ignoring this restriction, knowing full well what the reaction would be. And because of what's happened, Egypt has opened the Rafah border crossing for the whole of Ramadan, which is the longest it's been opened and means Hamas have actually achieved something. The whole thing has been very carefully calculated by them. They've cleverly manipulated everyone and I bet they consider the deaths a price worth paying to achieve that.

 

[west didsblue]

Maybe because, as I said in the America gun control thread, people expect more of a 'western' nation. Someone has to set the benchmark, and I'd rather that benchmark doesn't involve border police shooting children.

So you’re saying that we can’t expect the same from non-western nations. That’s pretty racist towards the inhabitants of those countries.

 

[Ohrodneyrodney]

So you’re saying that we can’t expect the same from non-western nations. That’s pretty racist towards the inhabitants of those countries.

Now there's a straw man argument if I ever saw one ;)