Middle East Conflict

tel aviv city said:
Civilians in Gaza ?
Kids who learn from age 4
Hate, kill ,what education what generation what a chance to them for normal ?
Hamas caver is that civilian in conical way
The world believes that picture
- we have the right to defend our country, one bomb in London not 181 like yesterday
And the world will justify any attack on civilians wherever they are
Click to expand...
Teaching children to hate, you say?

electronicintifada.net

Book review: how Israeli school textbooks teach kids to hate

A new book examines how the widespread inculcation of anti-Palestinian ideology in the minds of Israel's youth is achieved in school textbooks.
electronicintifada.net electronicintifada.net
 
Pelegrinni said:
I am not familiar with the story. But does it occur to you that maybe the child was not the target but the other occupants of the vehicle? Were they aware a child was in the vehicle?
I struggle to understand how some people delight in using the death of children as a weapon against Israel?

Do you think the soldier/police who fired the bullet goes home happy that they killed a four year old child?
Click to expand...

Your quote:

“I’m not familiar with the story”

Your opinion:

“maybe the child was not the target but the other occupants of the vehicle”.

“Were they aware a child was in the vehicle”

End quote.

The death of a 6-year old and you didnt begin with or even mention of condolences to the death of Hind Rajab. Instead you moved goal posts.

In contrast, the moment I knew of Mila Cohen being killed, I sent my condolences to Sandra Cohen. That same day. And also the GoFundMe.

Listen to Hind Rajab again

 
tel aviv city said:
Civilians in Gaza ?
Kids who learn from age 4
Hate, kill ,what education what generation what a chance to them for normal ?
Hamas caver is that civilian in conical way
The world believes that picture
- we have the right to defend our country, one bomb in London not 181 like yesterday
And the world will justify any attack on civilians wherever they are
Click to expand...

Pelegrinni said:
What about Egypt?
Strange you choose to ignore that side of the border.
Israel has a border with Gaza just like any other country.
If Gaza wants good relations with their neighbour, then they should abandon the Hamas charter that calls for the destruction of Israel. Or is this too much to ask?
Click to expand...

Do either of you accept that Israel is in the wrong here as well?
 
Pelegrinni said:
Look at the war in Gaza. Many people will tell you there's genocide going on. Hamas figures stated around 40 thousand dead so far. This figure includes Hamas fighters, civilians plus people who died of natural causes. From a population of more than two million, this is not what genocide looks like. Bashar Assad murdered more than 500k people within a short period but no one accuse him of genocide.

Israel allowed food convoys into Gaza only to be snatched by Hamas. I wait for anyone to show me any country at war that allowed food into enemy territory.

These are some of the facts that drive my position. Not sound bites from the crowd.
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Mate you must surely come to understand why this makes no sense?

The Palestinians have come to largely support Hamas but that doesn't mean that every single Palestinian should be obliterated. Similarly with Iran, I would rather the Iranian regime didn't exist but that doesn't mean that we should nuke Tehran and the Iranian people with it.

If Hamas existed in London then would you agree that it's appropriate to flatten and bomb London? Of course not, that'd be against international law and you'd maybe expect a war... Oh look what's happening!

So what's next? Do we allow Israel to defend itself next by flattening Beirut and millions of innocent people? What is the end goal?
 
Pelegrinni said:
What about Egypt?
Strange you choose to ignore that side of the border.
Israel has a border with Gaza just like any other country.
If Gaza wants good relations with their neighbour, then they should abandon the Hamas charter that calls for the destruction of Israel. Or is this too much to ask?
Click to expand...
Well, their last major policy statement in 2017 didn't repeat that objective from the earlier Charter.

Indeed, #20 sounds a bit like a two-state solution, without giving up the claim to the whole land.

archive.org

Hamas Charter ( 2017) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

A document of general principles and policies adopted by the Palestinian militant group known as Hamas in May, 2017.
archive.org


Q: When did Netanyahu start promoting Hamas in Gaza? A: Under the old charter.

www.haaretz.com

A brief history of the Netanyahu-Hamas alliance | Opinion

***
www.haaretz.com www.haaretz.com
 
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Pelegrinni said:
Jordan, UAE, Saudi Arabia etc all want peace and some have signed peace agreement with Israel.
You will notice that there has not been a single shot fired between Israel and these countries.
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On this point only, and I'm sure you know, the reason for that is primarily based on their own hatred of Iran, and that is all down to the different sects of the muslim faith (sunny/shiite).



Churchlawtonblue said:
Mate, the simple fact is the IDF have killed way too many civilians in Gaza, whatever spin you try and put on it. The majority of the bombing clearly isn't targeted or intelligence led given the civillian death toll.
Click to expand...
I'd disagree to a point, it is targetted or intel based, the problem in Gaza, is that hamas are completely embedded in (and often underneath) the innocent civilians.

Israel wants to wipe hamas out (understandably), so (it will say) it's unavoidable, and they have constantly warned the civilians to move when about to go into areas, the problem is theirs not really anywhere to go.

The big difference in Lebabon, is that hezbollah don't hide their infrastructure in/underneath the civilian population, so it's far easier to "target" it. Yes their leaders live/lived amongst the civilians (as in Gaza), and there will still be some collateral casualties, but far less than in (the much smaller) Gaza, and the civilians can get much further away from the targets.
 
inbetween said:
Mate you must surely come to understand why this makes no sense?

The Palestinians have come to largely support Hamas but that doesn't mean that every single Palestinian should be obliterated. Similarly with Iran, I would rather the Iranian regime didn't exist but that doesn't mean that we should nuke Tehran and the Iranian people with it.

If Hamas existed in London then would you agree that it's appropriate to flatten and bomb London? Of course not, that'd be against international law and you'd maybe expect a war... Oh look what's happening!

So what's next? Do we allow Israel to defend itself next by flattening Beirut and millions of innocent people? What is the end goal?
Click to expand...
Urban warfare is always very brutal and destructive.
Have a look at the post war pictures of Fallujah, Mosul, Srebrenica, Berlin, Idlib, Raqqa, Homs, Aleppo, etc.
Unfortunately, the same will happen with Beirut and many southern Lebanese cities.
 
Pelegrinni said:
Urban warfare is always very brutal and destructive.
Have a look at the post war pictures of Fallujah, Mosul, Srebrenica, Berlin, Idlib, Raqqa, Homs, Aleppo, etc.
Unfortunately, the same will happen with Beirut and many southern Lebanese cities.
Click to expand...
Don't do it then.
 
cucumberman said:
Your quote:

“I’m not familiar with the story”

Your opinion:

“maybe the child was not the target but the other occupants of the vehicle”.

“Were they aware a child was in the vehicle”

End quote.

The death of a 6-year old and you didnt begin with or even mention of condolences to the death of Hind Rajab. Instead you moved goal posts.

In contrast, the moment I knew of Mila Cohen being killed, I sent my condolences to Sandra Cohen. That same day. And also the GoFundMe.

Listen to Hind Rajab again

Click to expand...

That's not what I am saying.
When Hamas does anything, a lot of people give them the benefit of doubt.
I am simply asking relevant questions as someone with an objective mind.
 


This extensive attack from Iran. How did Iron Dome fare? Because a lot of plume along the horizon.

Not alot of coverage on these videos on mainstream media, though I also consider the strikes were either rural land or military bases.
 
Pelegrinni said:
Urban warfare is always very brutal and destructive.
Have a look at the post war pictures of Fallujah, Mosul, Srebrenica, Berlin, Idlib, Raqqa, Homs, Aleppo, etc.
Unfortunately, the same will happen with Beirut and many southern Lebanese cities.
Click to expand...
As I said, what would you do if Israel decided to bomb Manchester or London? Would you agree that well urban warfare is destructive and the obliteration of British civilians and cities is a necessary evil to root out terrorists?

This isn't how you achieve peace and security let's put it at that. If it happened to me then you'd absolutely expect a fight in return, and here we are on the brink of major war in the Middle East.

Israel could actually get instant peace and security by initiating peace talks with the Palestinian authorities, Hamas would then be neutralised. Netanyahu however doesn't want this because he doesn't want a Palestinian state!

I totally agree Israel reserve the right to self-defence but that should be within their borders, or at least to contain threats to their borders. Bombing Beirut doesn't fit in with that.
 
cleavers said:
On this point only, and I'm sure you know, the reason for that is primarily based on their own hatred of Iran, and that is all down to the different sects of the muslim faith (sunny/shiite).




I'd disagree to a point, it is targetted or intel based, the problem in Gaza, is that hamas are completely embedded in (and often underneath) the innocent civilians.

Israel wants to wipe hamas out (understandably), so (it will say) it's unavoidable, and they have constantly warned the civilians to move when about to go into areas, the problem is theirs not really anywhere to go.

The big difference in Lebabon, is that hezbollah don't hide their infrastructure in/underneath the civilian population, so it's far easier to "target" it. Yes their leaders live/lived amongst the civilians (as in Gaza), and there will still be some collateral casualties, but far less than in (the much smaller) Gaza, and the civilians can get much further away from the targets.
Click to expand...
A lot of folk and countries and the UN disagree with you as they are stating its a Genocide.

Warrants for War Crimes. Hamas and Israeli leaders.
 
metalblue said:
Disagree. It’s important to hear from both sides of the argument.
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Is he listening?

I guess a lot of people grew up sympathetic to Israel, not least because of the Holocaust. I had a friend who in her teens went to work in a kibbutz and came back enthusiastic, and we were sympathetic. I didn't know enough then to ask on whose land it was or where they got water.

Having heard the Palestinians' argument, I was sympathetic to them.

Israeli policy now is not likely to engender any more sympathy.
 
For the first time as an Israeli after and since the establishment of the state,
The state made a decision to be the aggressor and not the responder, the whole world will understand that the people of Israel are not messing around anymore, the decision has finally been made
And there is no way back
-at last we conduct themselves as they should conduct themselves in the Middle East, I have no doubt that they are the bad guys who so badly want to banish us to hell, they will realize this time that they can forget forever about their despicable idea
 
Vic said:
Is he listening?

I guess a lot of people grew up sympathetic to Israel, not least because of the Holocaust. I had a friend who in her teens went to work in a kibbutz and came back enthusiastic, and we were sympathetic. I didn't know enough then to ask on whose land it was or where they got water.

Having heard the Palestinians' argument, I was sympathetic to them.

Israeli policy now is not likely to engender any more sympathy.
Click to expand...

I suppose my premise is unless we can hear the other side of the argument we will never understand where they are coming from. That’s obviously not the same as agreeing with them or being sympathetic to their plight.

However we can’t ignore that a large swath of Israeli’s / Jewish folk think this is the right thing to do.
 
tel aviv city said:
For the first time as an Israeli after and since the establishment of the state,
The state made a decision to be the aggressor and not the responder, the whole world will understand that the people of Israel are not messing around anymore, the decision has finally been made
And there is no way back
-at last we conduct themselves as they should conduct themselves in the Middle East, I have no doubt that they are the bad guys who so badly want to banish us to hell, they will realize this time that they can forget forever about their despicable idea
Click to expand...
And how many mothers will lose sons how many children will lose fathers there ain’t no victory for any one just more death and resentment
 
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