Middle East Conflict

[cucumberman]

There are millions of Jews, in Israel and other countries whose roots were in places like Baghdad, Cairo, Alexandria, Damascus, Tehran, Tunis, Warsaw, Berlin, Lvov, Kiev Odessa, Salonika, Budapest and thousands of other places who were (at best) displaced virtually penniless or were brutally murdered.

None of them are living in refugee camps waging terrorist campaigns against the people who displaced them. None of them are demanding a right of return to those places. Probably because it's part of the peripatetic history of Jews since the earliest times, they just accepted it and moved on.

Yet countries like Iran, Yemen and Syria seem determined to displace Jews from the country they displaced them to in the first place.

Why did the Arab countries refuse to integrate the Palestinians displaced in 1948? Because it suited them to use them as pawns in their beef against Israel is the answer.

Why did Jordan not set up a separate Palestinian state between 1948 and 1967? Because they saw the West Bank as Jordanian territory is the answer. And when the PLO decided they were a law unto themselves in Jordan, Hussein massacred and expelled them.

The Arab nations had no interest in a two-state solution when they could have implemented this themselves, they only became interested when it was Israel's problem.

You can blame both sides for their intransigence in more recent years and it's been the bad luck of the Palestinians in Gaza that they were under the control of an extremist, anti-Israel terror group that has no regard for their lives and safety, and which made a fatal miscalculation last October. And on the other side they are faced with an extremist right-wing Israeli government who equally has little regard for their lives and safety.

But you can't ignore the history. There are lots of 'what ifs'. The former Israeli foreign minister Abba Evan summed it up: "The Arabs have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity".

Before you conflate Jews as all-for-one, do consider that like Muslims, Jews have different sects too.

Remember the Zionist Federation of Germany who collaborated with early Adolf Hitler and early Nazism Germany in the early 1930s, of Germany owning its supreme motherland and Jews owning its Promised Land. The Zionist Federation longed for the return to the Promised Land, and conjured the Haavara Agreement. Led by Jabotinsky, the Zionist Federation even minted coins that depicted the State of Israel, one side with the Star of David, the other with the Swastika. The Nazi Germany represented by Adolf Eichmann went to Palestine visited by the Zionist Federation to convince Nazi Germany in assisting Zionist the mass migration to Palestine overcoming the British army in Palestine. The first Israel mass migration ship, the SS Tel Aviv hoisted on its mast a large Swastika flag.

Do understand that the Revisionist Zionist of Germany DO NOT represent the native Palestine Jews.

And if Haavara Agreement and the Germany army was not enough to defeat British army, the offshoot Zionist Federation that is in Italy, called the Revisionist Zionist of Italy, colluded with Mussolini and Fascist Italy. The Revisionist Zionist of Italy founded a military arm called Betar by Zionist Jews. Betar army wore fatigues that had embroided stitches representing Fascism. And the Zionist Revisionist Italy and Betar papered posters on the streets of Italy promoting Fascism.

Again, these two Revisionist Zionists DO NOT represent true Jews. Jabotinsky established Likud.
What are the extreme sects that were inspired by Likud? Kach.
What is the party that Netanyahu is under? Likud Party.

The Labour Party of Israel is far better and pragmatic. They have been served as the most decorated soldiers in defending Israel, but also the ones opting for two-state solution and the denouncement of Israel settlements in Palestine and Lebanon. Yitzhak Rabin and Ehud Barak are the two who were pro Oslo Accord.

Again, not all Jews are Zionists.

 

[Pedestrian]

There are millions of Jews, in Israel and other countries whose roots were in places like Baghdad, Cairo, Alexandria, Damascus, Tehran, Tunis, Warsaw, Berlin, Lvov, Kiev Odessa, Salonika, Budapest and thousands of other places who were (at best) displaced virtually penniless or were brutally murdered.

None of them are living in refugee camps waging terrorist campaigns against the people who displaced them. None of them are demanding a right of return to those places. Probably because it's part of the peripatetic history of Jews since the earliest times, they just accepted it and moved on.

Yet countries like Iran, Yemen and Syria seem determined to displace Jews from the country they displaced them to in the first place.

Why did the Arab countries refuse to integrate the Palestinians displaced in 1948? Because it suited them to use them as pawns in their beef against Israel is the answer.

Why did Jordan not set up a separate Palestinian state between 1948 and 1967? Because they saw the West Bank as Jordanian territory is the answer. And when the PLO decided they were a law unto themselves in Jordan, Hussein massacred and expelled them.

The Arab nations had no interest in a two-state solution when they could have implemented this themselves, they only became interested when it was Israel's problem.

You can blame both sides for their intransigence in more recent years and it's been the bad luck of the Palestinians in Gaza that they were under the control of an extremist, anti-Israel terror group that has no regard for their lives and safety, and which made a fatal miscalculation last October. And on the other side they are faced with an extremist right-wing Israeli government who equally has little regard for their lives and safety.

But you can't ignore the history. There are lots of 'what ifs'. The former Israeli foreign minister Abba Evan summed it up: "The Arabs have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity".

The history is a problem. There doesn’t seem to be an answer. Bibi and trump will take you closer to destruction. Be well.

 

[The blue phantom]

The main fault is the occupation and theft of land. You're never sorting anything out until this problem is addressed.

 

[grunge]

I understand the frustration of the Palestinians totally.

But I don't understand why Sinwar insisted that a massacre and taking of hostages was going to improve their situation.

I don’t think that was the plan at all. I think the plan was to get a response so harsh from Israel that neighbouring states join in.

I also still believe ( no real evidence ) that Russia helped plan Oct 7th as Middle East instability helps them and I don’t believe Hamas could go from what they were to a well coordinated multi pronged assault like that over night.

All in all I believe what is happening is the plan.

 

[salfordbluetrue]

And that's entirely their fault.

Ric said that there are people in this thread who are wholly in one camp or the other, and incapable of seeing any of the other side of the argument.

Last October lit the blue touch paper, which you have to accept was Hamas' fault. If you can't accept that it was, and that it was a cynical act and a major strategic calculation, then you're clearly one of those people.

Last October did not light the blue touch paper, it merely escalated it, Israel was already bombing schools and hospitals, October just gave the excuse for the genocidal war criminals to steal more land, if you want to blame Hamas do so, but Palestinians already had more babies die at the hands of Israel, than those that died on October the 7th

 

[BlueAnorak]

I disagree that fault is irrelevant. What did Sinwar think a right-wing Israeli led by a man who only had his own self-interest and political survival (which was by no means certain then) at heart was going to do in reaction to the events of October 7th?

And when they did it, he hid in tunnels while the people he supposedly represented died above him in their thousands.

It was totally intentional Colin.
Hamas like Hezbollah and Iran want to murder 7.5m Jews. It's unfortunate that they jumped the gun and didn't wait for Hezbollah and Iran to join them in their Jihad. They thought the others would join in their fight. Their stupidity gave Israel the opportunity to defeat each in detail before moving on to the next enemy after nullifying Hamas as an effective force.
They don't want a two state solution they want a "no Jews" solution.
Talk of displacing Jews elsewhere is just that talk - much like Hilter relocating Jews elsewhere. The elsewhere turned out to be death camps.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is living in a dream world OR agrees with the "Final Solution".

 

[dublinblue12]

 

[BlueAnorak]

Last October did not light the blue touch paper, it merely escalated it, Israel was already bombing schools and hospitals, October just gave the excuse for the genocidal war criminals to steal more land, if you want to blame Hamas do so, but Palestinians already had more babies die at the hands of Israel, than those that died on October the 7th

Where have you been since the continual rain of missiles launched from the Gaza strip started?
Most get Intercepted, but thats not the point. Bad waves of missiles result in Israel destroying launch sites and located arms storage sites - which coincidently are built in/under schools and hospitals.
Israel gives warning of strikes - though recently, sometimes not - mainly due to the fog of war.

 

[robbieh]

I understand the frustration of the Palestinians totally.

But I don't understand why Sinwar insisted that a massacre and taking of hostages was going to improve their situation.

I agree with you. He probably didn't think that.

So I imagine he knew there'd be a huge response. Possibly not on the scale we've seen.

I mean it's certainly resuscitated talk of 2 states in the wider world which may have been an objective. As in Europe we assumed things were relatively quiet. Everyone worrying about Ukraine. But for Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank it was business as usual.

 

[salfordbluetrue]

Where have you been since the continual rain of missiles launched from the Gaza strip started?
Most get Intercepted, but thats not the point. Bad waves of missiles result in Israel destroying launch sites and located arms storage sites - which coincidently are built in/under schools and hospitals.
Israel gives warning of strikes - though recently, sometimes not - mainly due to the fog of war.

What clap trap, so the saturation bombing came after a warning, you must think the Palestinians are some sort of lesser being, if after 20 years of Israel bombing schools and hospitals they have not learnt not to put arms there.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

The main fault is the occupation and theft of land. You're never sorting anything out until this problem is addressed.

I wouldn't disagree with that sentiment but there's another fairly key fault is also the refusal of some of the extremist Palestinian groups, and their backers, to recognise Israel's right to exist.

That's the other side of the coin that has to be solved before the problem is solved.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I agree with you. He probably didn't think that.

So I imagine he knew there'd be a huge response. Possibly not on the scale we've seen.

I mean it's certainly resuscitated talk of 2 states in the wider world which may have been an objective. As in Europe we assumed things were relatively quiet. Everyone worrying about Ukraine. But for Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank it was business as usual.

You could equally argue that his intention was precisely to get a response so brutal that other anti-Israel elements, specifically those controlled by Iran, plus other sympathisers in the Arab and Muslim worlds, would join in.

It was known that Netanyahu relied on hardline elements to keep his government in power, after all. He was hardly going to hold out an olive branch and say " Hey guys. I get you're upset. Let's talk about this" was he?

 

[grunge]

You could equally argue that his intention was precisely to get a response so brutal that other anti-Israel elements, specifically those controlled by Iran, plus other sympathisers in the Arab and Muslim worlds, would join in.

It was known that Netanyahu relied on hardline elements to keep his government in power, after all. He was hardly going to hold out an olive branch and say " Hey guys. I get you're upset. Let's talk about this" was he?

This has always been my view and by doing so totally destabilise the region. and has the additional side effect of creating a new generation of militants.

lots of UN countries turning on Isreal I think was a surprise and a bonus to them.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

View attachment 135317

Why doesn't this surprise me. Ireland is the most antisemitic non-Muslim nation on earth. It's even more antisemitic than many Muslims nations.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Why doesn't this surprise me. Ireland is the most antisemitic non-Muslim nation on earth. It's even more antisemitic than many Muslims nations.

I know you believe what you want and I won’t sway you, but being Pro-Palestinian for want of a better phrase, and being anteSemitic are not the same thing.
Irish people see similarities that perhaps are not recognised by British people as true or significant in our histories.
Ireland recognises and supports a two state solution.
How that’s achieved no? I have no idea.

 

[BlueAnorak]

I agree with you. He probably didn't think that.

So I imagine he knew there'd be a huge response. Possibly not on the scale we've seen.

I mean it's certainly resuscitated talk of 2 states in the wider world which may have been an objective. As in Europe we assumed things were relatively quiet. Everyone worrying about Ukraine. But for Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank it was business as usual.

He was in a Rush to get the Hamas+Hezbollah+Iran Jihad against Israel started and expected the other two to join in immediately.
Sadly for them this didn't happen.
I suspect, like others, that this was due to pressure from Russia (so America's eyes could be diverted from Ukraine).

 

[robbieh]

This has always been my view and by doing so totally destabilise the region. and has the additional side effect of creating a new generation of militants.

lots of UN countries turning on Isreal I think was a surprise and a bonus to them.

The countries who have destabilized the middle east are Britain, the US, Russia. Westerners have been dabbling in the area since oil fields were discovered in Persia in 1908.

 

[grunge]

The countries who have destabilized the middle east are Britain, the US, Russia. Westerners have been dabbling in the area since oil fields were discovered in Persia in 1908.

Oh No doubt and cant disagree, But right now a significant destabilisation of the region benefits Russian goals.

It could be a coincidence but Iran being backed by Russia, then all of a sudden Hamas turned into a well trained coordinated attack group, feels like interference has occurred. but as I say I have no evidence. just too many coincidences for me to think its not planned.

 

[cucumberman]

View attachment 135317

In case our anti-zionism has been forgotten, recap the early 1930s

We boycotted German goods

A minority of Zionists (especially the Revisionist Zionists) were against the Nazi boycott. To the point that even global Jews who were against the Nazi goods have been labelled by zionists as unZionist (this was in the 1930s so yes anti-zionism started between Jews).

The Revisionist Zionists, more so the elite businessmen Zionists, even came to the point of boycotting Jew goods and promoting Nazi goods instead:

Again, the Revisionist Zionists are a minority of Jews, wherein even global Jews disliked the Revisionist Zionists.

The question is, why was the Revisionist Zionist and the Likud Party run by one person, i.e. Jabotinsky?

The cultural Zionists like Einstein and Arendt should have been the true Jews, because they are pro research and pro interfaith, whereas the revisionist zionist are pro business profit and pro land growth.

 

[cucumberman]

123 countries have declared Israel as conducting criminal and legal attacks on UNRWA.



This is in light of Israel failing to provide credible evidence of the association of UNRWA with Hamas. The UN has recently published a 54-page report investigating the claim and concluded no evidence.

https://www.un.org/sites/un2.un.org/files/2024/04/unrwa_independent_review_on_neutrality.pdf

Hence, the claim by Israel is mere allegation, but the humanitarian and financial damage has been done. This is in addition to Israel to date has killed more than 170 UNRWA humanitarian staff.