Middle East Conflict

[Bluemoon_420]

And yet if Israel hadn't ethnically cleansed, illegally occupied, committed countless crimes against humanity and imposed an apartheid system this war wouldn't have started.

Corrected for you.

 

[inbetween]

The point that you're missing from your argument here is "proportionate response".

What we have seen from Israel is not proportionate. The death of over 4000 children who have nothing to do with Hamas, and have no idea about politics is not acceptable. This is a mass slaughter of innocent civilians. Nobody disputes the facts that Israel should defend themselves, but if we are honest Israel (throughout history dating back to 1948) rarely follows the rules of international law. The illegal settler towns are evidence of that. Israel started off in 1948 the size of a postage stamp and has aggressively increased its size to an A4 piece of paper. Israel is an aggressive neighbour, and everybody deserves to live with dignity and respect. That has not happened for the Palestinians for 70 years as they've been moved off their own land and pushed into a strip of land which is overpopulated, and without the basic services for what we would class as normal.

If you oppress a population in this way what do expect would be the outcome? Israel could have lived in peace with a Palestinian country as a neighbour, but it chose to subject these people to this terrible oppression.

So what are you saying? Israel should stop and leave Gaza? Then what? I hope you understand that Hamas wanted this to happen. They went and killed people in order to force this response by Israel.

The last thing that Hamas wants is for Israel to stop because the Israeli response drives their entire narrative. If Israel stops then Hamas will continue or they will get worse and what is your proportional response to that?

Obviously it's fine for Israeli's to die of course.

No. Have you?

I wonder where they got the money to build their tunnel networks used to kill people?

Keep donating!

 

[Ducado]

The best thing for the Palestinian people is a recognised Palestinian state. However, to get there one must recognise the other as part of any solution and that's the problem. Are the Palestinians likely to get closer to this objective with Hamas or any violent aggressor in Gaza? No, it's the opposite.

It's extremely easy for Israel to coexist with Hamas in Gaza because the Israeli military is very well equipped to deal with any threat. This changes however if Hamas becomes better equipped and becomes more violent which is what is happening and that has now been recognised as a major threat by Israel.

As I've said so many times on this thread, armed resistance on the part of Hamas is completely pointless. Israel can fight a war with Hamas forever which means the Palestinian people will suffer that decision by Hamas potentially forever. That isn't going to change unless the narrative changes which is one that calls for an end to violence and one where each recognises the others need for a peaceful end.

It’s easy for them whilst they are in power occupying the area fighting an insurrection will not be easy and very costly as the Americans keep warning them, Hamas will not battle the IDF straight on, they will wait until the IDF occupies the strip, I doubt there are many even in the North just token resistance, it’s all very The art of war

 

[BlueAnorak]

The point that you're missing from your argument here is "proportionate response".

What we have seen from Israel is not proportionate. The death of over 4000 children who have nothing to do with Hamas, and have no idea about politics is not acceptable. This is a mass slaughter of innocent civilians. Nobody disputes the facts that Israel should defend themselves, but if we are honest Israel (throughout history dating back to 1948) rarely follows the rules of international law. The illegal settler towns are evidence of that. Israel started off in 1948 the size of a postage stamp and has aggressively increased its size to an A4 piece of paper. Israel is an aggressive neighbour, and everybody deserves to live with dignity and respect. That has not happened for the Palestinians for 70 years as they've been moved off their own land and pushed into a strip of land which is overpopulated, and without the basic services for what we would class as normal.

If you oppress a population in this way what do expect would be the outcome? Israel could have lived in peace with a Palestinian country as a neighbour, but it chose to subject these people to this terrible oppression.

War is never proportional.
If you don’t want bad things to happen don't start it.
I'm fairly sure it was Intentional, by Hamas, as part of a long term plan to choke Israel's support in the west - and Isreal do seem keen to jump into the trap with both feet.
I don't think Israel leaders are actually that thick, so their plan is what exactly? I haven't worked it into yet.

 

[Roachy]

The point that you're missing from your argument here is "proportionate response".

What we have seen from Israel is not proportionate. The death of over 4000 children who have nothing to do with Hamas, and have no idea about politics is not acceptable. This is a mass slaughter of innocent civilians. Nobody disputes the facts that Israel should defend themselves, but if we are honest Israel (throughout history dating back to 1948) rarely follows the rules of international law. The illegal settler towns are evidence of that. Israel started off in 1948 the size of a postage stamp and has aggressively increased its size to an A4 piece of paper. Israel is an aggressive neighbour, and everybody deserves to live with dignity and respect. That has not happened for the Palestinians for 70 years as they've been moved off their own land and pushed into a strip of land which is overpopulated, and without the basic services for what we would class as normal.

If you oppress a population in this way what do expect would be the outcome? Israel could have lived in peace with a Palestinian country as a neighbour, but it chose to subject these people to this terrible oppression.

Let's have your comprehensive account of an Israeli military response that achieves it's objectives and remains proportionate.

 

[Vic]

Really? What are they going to do with over 2 million pissed off Palestinians? It’s been made clear to them that expulsion is not an option, they may end up being reluctant occupiers because no one is willing to replace a Hamas government

It’s an operation with little or no planning for the day after, Hamas don’t need to put up a big fight all they will do is wage an insurgent campaign from the rubble on the occupying troops and this bleed Israel of men and resources

I will repeat what I have always said, Israel needs saving from itself

Who's made it clear that expulsion is not an option?

The Americans have said that, but is it clear?

The existential threat to Israel is not from terrorist attacks, but from alienating ordinary Americans. A time may come when "there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph".

 

[BlueAnorak]

But you concluded without any doubt that it was mobile connectivity, even mentioning of E2E to convince all in this thread.

And now you backtracked

So your explanations for all this while in this thread is conjectural and textbook.

Oh give over - this is a forum not a basis for marked PHD submission.

 

[Complex Simplicity]

War is never proportional.
If you don’t want bad things to happen don't start it.
I'm fairly sure it was Intentional as part of long term plan to chock Israel's support in the west and Isreal do seem keen to jump into the trap with both feet.

This isn't a war. This is a complete destruction of the entire infrastructure of the Gaza Strip and the death of a population. This is Genocide and ethnic cleansing. The United Nations, Spanish Government and many others back up those claims.

Along with every aid agency who so far have lost 116 aid workers in the midst of this bombardment. If this ends today, how do the Palestinian people survive? Winter is coming, and for the 600k homeless people there will be many more deaths. We haven't even started to see the catastrophe that is Palestine, but I'm sure there are worse things to come and we will be witnessing this on our TV's.

Shame on our government who say that this is acceptable. These aren't the British values I stand for.

 

[Complex Simplicity]

Let's have your comprehensive account of an Israeli military response that achieves it's objectives and remains proportionate.

I've already explained that I don't think it is proportionate. If you can explain to me how this is justified I'd really like to hear it?

 

[philiph20]

Israel wants Gaza, and no one can stop them. It's just that simple. Game over.

The USA, i known Israel is their proxy state in the region but they can quite easily cut off funding and bring them to book surely.