Middle East Conflict

[inbetween]

But why would the Palestinians ‘leave them alone’. Why should the Palestinians have been made to pay with their land because of Europes anti-semitic crimes. Why would they leave them alone as during the course of those 75 years more and more land has been systematically stolen, whilst countless innocents have been brutalised and murdered. All the while the rest of the world sat back and has allowed it to happen with zero recourse for the perpetrators? Where has diplomacy got them in the past 75 years?

The state of Palestine is not recognised by the west and the leadership in Gaza is Hamas who are a proscribed terrorist organisation. We share zero values with these types of people and it would be like negotiating with ISIS. Therefore of course the west in particular is going to sit back.

Giving back land doesn't solve the problem either, the problem runs deep into how you get a designated state of Palestine and state of Israel. A negotiated two state solution is the only obvious solution but to get it you need sane and calm people on both sides of the negotiation table and currently there are neither.

The problem is a majority of Palestinians and Israeli's think that either has no right to exist or at least oppose two states or a vastly reduced state. Therefore what else can we expect from the people they elect?

 

[west didsblue]

I’d say both are immune given Hamas leadership are all living a nice life in Qatar.

I’m fairly sure they’ll find out one day that Mossad operate world wide.

 

[Ducado]

Oh ffs.

I highly doubt that the US will want to get into a war with Iran, especially because of the close relationship between Iran and Russia let alone what a nightmare they could inflict on gulf shipping it's postraring, I also don't think Hezbollah really want's to get involved at the moment, the problem comes if Israel goes too far and the pressure from the Arab street becomes too much, but I expect the Americans will reign the Israelis in before that happens

My biggest fear is no one takes the opportunity to address the main issues, it's unfortunate that the blowback is suffered throughout the world, the further they go the more they radicalise and on we go

 

[Ducado]

I’d say both are immune given Hamas leadership are all living a nice life in Qatar.

Some of the political leaders are but the military leadership is in Garza

 

[BringBackSwales]

I genuinely don’t pretend to be as clever as a lot of you guys in this forum, but one thing stands out to me as an onlooker to this.

The world has quite rightly condemned the Hamas terrorists for what they did, but they are what they say on the tin, terrorists. How can the world then watch on with no condemnation as a legitimate UN member government shells the fuck out of a civilian population? It doesn’t sit well with me that this is an appropriate response, but as I say I am not well versed in such matters.

 

[inbetween]

I genuinely don’t pretend to be as clever as a lot of you guys in this forum, but one thing stands out to me as an onlooker to this.

The world has quite rightly condemned the Hamas terrorists for what they did, but they are what they say on the tin, terrorists. How can the world then watch on with no condemnation as a legitimate UN member government shells the fuck out of a civilian population? It doesn’t sit well with me that this is an appropriate response, but as I say I am not well versed in such matters.

Israel aren't targeting Palestinians, they're targeting Hamas. It's really important to make that distinction.

 

[BringBackSwales]

Israel aren't targeting Palestinians, they're targeting Hamas. It's really important to make that distinction.

Not from what I could see. They are targeting areas that have civilians and Hamas in, I would suggest probably a lot more civilians.

 

[BobKowalski]

But why would the Palestinians ‘leave them alone’. Why should the Palestinians have been made to pay with their land because of Europes anti-semitic crimes. Why would they leave them alone as during the course of those 75 years more and more land has been systematically stolen, whilst countless innocents have been brutalised and murdered. All the while the rest of the world sat back and has allowed it to happen with zero recourse for the perpetrators? Where has diplomacy got them in the past 75 years?

While no expert on the origins and roots of this conflict, I seem to recall a lot of the land currently controlled by Israel was taken during wars initiated by surrounding Arab states. If you attack a fledging nation don‘t be surprised if it fights back and if it wins don’t expect any favours afterwards.

This is not to excuse all Israeli behaviour, no nation has clean hands, but I do think acknowledging past events is important.

 

[BobKowalski]

Israel aren't targeting Palestinians, they're targeting Hamas. It's really important to make that distinction.

If you bomb a city then there will be civilian casualties. The more you bomb, the more men, women and children you will kill.

 

[BobKowalski]

Putin comments. Working to an ‘independent Palestinian state’ is a bit rich (Ukraine, anyone?), and Netanyahu will be wondering why they cosied up to Putin at the expense of Ukraine given an independent Palestine state is the opposite of what Netanyahu wants.

Putin will hedge his bets as much as he can, but when push comes to shove Iran is of more value than Israel.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Israel aren't targeting Palestinians, they're targeting Hamas. It's really important to make that distinction.

Would you sit across the road with the general population when Israel bombs a Hamas target?

There’s no huge distinction to me because the end result is lots of civilians get killed.

 

[Postman Pep]

Kay Burley managing to outdo Kirsty Wark in the **** stakes.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Putin comments. Working to an ‘independent Palestinian state’ is a bit rich (Ukraine, anyone?), and Netanyahu will be wondering why they cosied up to Putin at the expense of Ukraine given an independent Palestine state is the opposite of what Netanyahu wants.

Putin will hedge his bets as much as he can, but when push comes to shove Iran is of more value than Israel.

To take a lesson from your earlier post, Palestine was the land of Palestinians long before Ukraine saw itself as an independent Country. One thing they arguably links Ukraine and Israel is that they haven’t been separate countries for all that long ( in the bigger picture of history). I support Ukraine btw.

 

[inbetween]

If you bomb a city then there will be civilian casualties. The more you bomb, the more men, women and children you will kill.

Not from what I could see. They are targeting areas that have civilians and Hamas in, I would suggest probably a lot more civilians.

And what about the Israeli civilians who are being indiscriminately attacked by rockets fired into Israel? Is that okay and should there should be no response then?

The only way to stop that is to stop it with force I reckon?

 

[Don Karleone]

 

[Postman Pep]

Israel aren't targeting Palestinians, they're targeting Hamas. It's really important to make that distinction.

Why? To perpetuate the myth of 'purity of arms'?
Why pretend when the Israeli defence minister isn't even bothering this time?
It's collective punishment.

 

[inbetween]

Why? To perpetuate the myth of 'purity of arms'?
Why pretend when the Israeli defence minister isn't even bothering this time?
It's collective punishment.

But that comes from the tactics of Hamas who want this to happen. Unfortunately the Israeli's will play that game however their argument will come from self-defence and that's how Hamas have allowed it to be framed.

Either way it's a zero sum game.

 

[domalino]

If you bomb a city then there will be civilian casualties. The more you bomb, the more men, women and children you will kill.

Roughly 1 in 100 people in Gaza is a Hamas combatant. There’s 30,000 of them and 2.5m people total.

Given how inaccurate their chosen weapons are (see direct hit to UN run school yesterday) and the extraordinarily high population density of Gaza meaning it’s impossible to find clear boundaries between civilians and combatants, it’s quite likely they’ve not done much better than that ratio and killed fewer than 8 Hamas for the 742 civilians who died yesterday. 45% of Gaza’s population is children, so probably 300-350 of those dead are children.


Collateral damage is part of any war, but there has to be a limit on what’s considered acceptable by most people and its orders of magnitude below what Israel is OK with.


Israel aren’t going to win this war and wipe out Hamas with bombs, we know that because they’ve been doing it for 15 years and only gone backwards in terms of their own national security and weakening Hamas militarily and politically.

So if they keep using them then it shows us if they’re actually serious, or this is just yet another biennial war between the two where a few thousand people die and then the world keeps spinning.

 

[Postman Pep]

But that comes from the tactics of Hamas who want this to happen. Unfortunately the Israeli's will play that game however their argument will come from self-defence and that's how Hamas have allowed it to be framed.

Either way it's a zero sum game.

So the distinction that you said was important to make doesn't apply after all. Glad we cleared that up :)

 

[BringBackSwales]

And what about the Israeli civilians who are being indiscriminately attacked by rockets fired into Israel? Is that okay and should there should be no response then?

The only way to stop that is to stop it with force I reckon?

I didn’t say that. But let’s not pretend this isn’t disgusting on both sides. Just that one group of terrorists seems not to be condemned