Middle East Conflict

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

Just after it happened they WERE talking about it, only when the slow realisation dawned that it could possibly have been the other side did it quieten down and the talk moved onto other things.

Strange isn’t it. Last night there were so many angry posters on here, who were jumping to conclusions often about Twitter posts.. as soon it was discovered it might not have been Isreal, those same posters are now silent and have moved onto other subjects, as you say.

There was no balance at all.

 

[Rory Bluelow]

The evidence convinced me it was a Hamas supported misfired rocket.

The lack of a crater, the burning fire after contact, the Ariel surveillance, the lack of building structural damage, the wiretapped Hamas phone discussion, and the visual and infrared evidence all point in one direction.

Sure, could this all have been faked? Possibly. But unlikely.


I'm going to conclude the obvious. Hamas error.

I believe the organisation some (including me based on what I’m hearing) are holding responsible is Islamic Jihad rather than Hamas.

 

[Bluemoon_420]

Is this wire tapping carried out by the Isreali intelligence , the same intelligence service that had no idea terrorist attacks were going to happen 10 days ago. Doesn't seem like a trustworthy source to me.

Same goes for the strategic bombing being carried out. We are being asked to be believe that 10 days ago they had no idea an attack was imminent but now they suddenly have military targets for 6000 bombs? Im no expert but is that plausible?

How convenient that the time Israel most needs evidence to prove “it wasn’t them”, as the world began to wake up and smell the coffee and condemn their genocidal atrocities, they’re able to capture crystal clear audio confessions and neatly worded documents that ties it all together like the end of an episode of Scooby Doo.

Investigation done and dusted, with the conclusion that they aren’t the bad guys when the dust hasn’t even settled on the hundreds of dead bodies.

And those pesky IJ/Hamas terrorists would’ve gotten away with it too, if it wasn’t for those meddling Israelis. :rolleyes:

Biden with his unwavering support for the terrorist state is also unsurprising.

 

[Dax777]

Is this wire tapping carried out by the Isreali intelligence , the same intelligence service that had no idea terrorist attacks were going to happen 10 days ago. Doesn't seem like a trustworthy source to me.

Again, to follow how evidence works, it's the preponderance of evidence that's convincing, not any one particular evidence.

But certainly the absence of evidence about something else entirely( the attacks 10 days ago for example) doesn't cast doubt.

It's like saying you don't trust the evidence the police have in catching one person who assaulted a woman because they lacked evidence about a robbery down the street. That's weird reasoning.

Same goes for the strategic bombing being carried out. We are being asked to be believe that 10 days ago they had no idea an attack was imminent but now they suddenly have military targets for 6000 bombs? Im no expert but is that plausible?

Again, just coz they didn't know one thing doesn't mean they can't know other things.

For good or bad, Israel had been more focused ( wrongly it now seems) on the West Bank and Hezbollah to the north. Since the threat from hamas had often come from them launching rockets which Israel mostly neutralized with the Iron Dome.

So it's not beyond reason that they were complacent. Noe is it now beyond reason that they have been gathering info on where these rockets often gets launched from.


None of this is beyond what one can reasonably expect to believe. But I guess you see it differently.

 

[Ducado]

I’ve seen some people mention the normalisation of relationships between Israel and the Arab world

Yes it may have been one of the factors but the far biggest problem was ignoring the issue thinking it could be managed mainly by great brutality, the west let it fester and did nothing, no peace talks since 2014, and if we keep ignoring it, it blow up again

On to the conflict itself I don’t think we will see a substantial ground incursion

 

[Dage]

How convenient that the time Israel most needs evidence to prove “it wasn’t them”, as the world began to wake up and smell the coffee and condemn their genocidal atrocities, they’re able to capture crystal clear audio confessions and neatly worded documents that ties it all together like the end of an episode of Scooby Doo.

Investigation done and dusted, with the conclusion that they aren’t the bad guys when the dust hasn’t even settled on the hundreds of dead bodies.

And those pesky IJ/Hamas terrorists would’ve gotten away with it too, if it wasn’t for those meddling Israelis. :rolleyes:

Biden with his unwavering support for the terrorist state is also unsurprising.

You can find that strange but have you any points to not believe the evidence? Also why is it strange to think that Israel massively turned their intelligence into Gaza?

 

[Dax777]

Its fuck all to do with what is virtuous, for most people.
It's about what is right and wrong.

Yes, Hamas is all wrong. Nothing about them is right. But most on the left will not be caught dead saying it. Which confirms this is not merely about right and wrong. It's partly about it. But not wholly.

I mean, how can anyone not see Hamas is just plain wrong for Palestinians? They shoot rockets from Cemeteries near a hospitals in Palestinian land. :(

This is a group with a 15% -25% failure rate on their rocket launches and still they take so little precaution.

If it was about right and wrong, it's clear as day this group is ALL Wrong.

 

[Dax777]

I believe the organisation some (including me based on what I’m hearing) are holding responsible is Islamic Jihad rather than Hamas.

Hamas controls Gaza. If an organization inside Gaza today is launching rockets at Israel, it is with the blessing, support and knowledge of the Government/Terrorists group Hamas.

Unless we believe that Islamic Jihad is just running wild in Gaza doing whatever they want.

 

[Rascal]

It does seem incredibly weird. All religions are right wing, that is what they are, ultra conservative. But at the risk of being called racist, the most far right religion by far is Islam. That the left have 'jumped into bed' with a far right organisation just beggars belief.

I would love you to explain how the left have jumped into bed with Islam

“Religion is the opium of the people. It is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of our soulless conditions."

Karl Marx.

The left want to abolish religion, it favours secular humanism.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

That sounds positive at least.

 

[Metal Biker]

I would love you to explain how the left have jumped into bed with Islam

“Religion is the opium of the people. It is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of our soulless conditions."

Karl Marx.

The left want to abolish religion, it favours secular humanism.

The Left are Islamophobic, confirmed.


;)

 

[bluemoon32]

Who mate?

Both sides

 

[Dax777]

I’ve seen some people mention the normalisation of relationships between Israel and the Arab world

Yes it may have been one of the factors but the far biggest problem was ignoring the issue thinking it could be managed mainly by great brutality, the west let it fester and did nothing, no peace talks since 2014, and if we keep ignoring it, it blow up again

On to the conflict itself I don’t think we will see a substantial ground incursion

No. You are conflating 2 things.

1. The unacceptable conditions of Palestinians is an issue. Has been for a while. And an attempt to solve that issue is the attempt to normalize relationships with most Middle Eastern Nations. So in fact, doing that is a step in the direction of Palestinians, which cannot be managed by force.

2. The attacks by Hamas was in part to stop the normalization discussions. Especially the one involving Saudi Arabia who are the biggest movers outside Iran in the Middle East.

It's easier to understand like this:

There are 2 ways to solve the Palestinian issue:
1. Is with an Independent Palestine for the Palestinian people. ( with Israel as a neighbor)

2. An independent Palestine for the Palestinian people (without Israel as a neighbor.)

Hamas, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad ( Not to mention, many a citizen from most Middle Eastern Nations and there diasporan offsprings only want or recognize option 2.

Normalizing relationship with Arab Countries hints at option 1. Hamas didn't want that. Creating a hostile and aggressive Israel ( which can be achieved by killing its citizens) forces the hands of Arab Nations to back off from normalizations. This by the way has been achieved.

Sadly at the expense of innocent Israelis and Palestinian Arabs.

 

[lust overlord]

Yes, Hamas is all wrong. Nothing about them is right. But most on the left will not be caught dead saying it. Which confirms this is not merely about right and wrong. It's partly about it. But not wholly.

I mean, how can anyone not see Hamas is just plain wrong for Palestinians? They shoot rockets from Cemeteries near a hospitals in Palestinian land. :(

This is a group with a 15% -25% failure rate on their rocket launches and still they take so little precaution.

If it was about right and wrong, it's clear as day this group is ALL Wrong.

Being in the wrong in this conflict is not isolated to one side.
There really aren't any good guys,just a bunch of extremists,and power hungry twats fucking the civilians,stuck in the middle of it,over.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

This mess is not an easy task for any world leader. Israel is, by necessity I think, right wing. Hamas are to the right of Hitler and the Ku Klux Klan put together. Why the left support them I will never know (unless it's because they are the poor (financially) relation in this).

When you say the left support them (Hamas) can I ask who you are referring to.

 

[bugsyblue]

Strange isn’t it. Last night there were so many angry posters on here, who were jumping to conclusions often about Twitter posts.. as soon it was discovered it might not have been Isreal, those same posters are now silent and have moved onto other subjects, as you say.

There was no balance at all.

It seems a bit far fetched to me that it wasn’t Israel. Hard to know with so much unverified reports but it isn’t the first time Israel have attacked Palestinians and denied it to only later be proven to have lied. Do we believe Hamas could flatten a hospital? Do we believe they’d do it against their own people (as evil as they are). And thinking Iran or another country could secretly bomb Gaza is ludicrous.

The Israelis are bombing the shit out of Gaza so more likely they unintentionally targeted the hospital and are now using propaganda for damage limitation. Or even worse targeted it in the belief Hamas soldiers were hiding out there (which could be true) with a callous disregard for civilian life. Again, not sure how true this is, but you do have reports that the Israelis warned people to evacuate the hospital before the attack happened.

I fear Isreal did it. The US know it but typically their own foreign policy dictates any course of action rather than a moral one. At the end of the day if the US were to side with Palestine on this then Iran could have justification to join the war against Israel with leas fear of retribution from the west but if that does happen hello world war 3 - hence the US siding with Israel on this regardless of who is responsible.

 

[Rascal]

I'm not leftwing by any stretch, but the analysis here is simple... People on the left view every relationships through an "Oppressor vs Oppressed lense. And they see themselves as virtuous for siding with the oppressed in those disputes.
Oppressor - Oppressed
Man. - woman
Straight - Gay
White - Black
Biology - Gender
Western - Non-Western
Christianity - Any other religion
Rich. - Poor.
1st World - 3rd World ( Developing nations to be politically correct.

Once you understand the dichotomous lense, everything makes sense.

I believe you are American, therefore what you are saying here makes sense only if you replace the Left with Liberal.

Once you understand that the UK left is very different to the US left will that make sense, the UK left has historically viewed society through the lens of class and Capital being the exploiter of the working class.The working class is multi faceted and can be any combination of your ideas of oppressed and oppressor. Your post does go some way to explain the right in the UK is using your premise to promote culture wars between Conservative and Liberals.

 

[west didsblue]

I’d say the timing was entirely deliberate.

Demonstrations were spontaneous and as you rightly say, at that point, with 1300 murdered Israeli citizens breaking news on our screens it was an utter disgrace.

I’d seen posters earlier in the week advertising it but they should have cancelled.

 

[Rascal]

The Left are Islamophobic, confirmed.


;)

Quick :))

 

[BobKowalski]

You are assuming that the Iranians were being honourable and abiding by the agreement.

I wonder why Netanyahu would urge the Americans to scrap the deal, might it be something to do with Iran's wish to wipe all Jews, and Israel from the face of the earth ?

You know, the same reason that they fund the terrorist groups !

At the time Iran had its own internal disagreements, the deal was the outcome of the moderates winning against the hawks. We had oversight, the ability to see what they were doing in accordance with the agreement and areas where they were breaking it. There was dialogue and the potential for better and deeper relations.

Instead, Trump threw it into the trash, and the hawks in Iran felt justified. You talk about bad actors well Trump was a bad actor in not honouring a US agreement, a joint US agreement at that.

Right wing hawks - Trump, Netanyahu, Iranian mullahs - it’s always the same fucking result. Stupidity, bigotry and then carnage. Every fucking time.