That's the reason I'm shocked people are not shouting for a cease fire , it seems to me that to some innocent palaestian deaths are only used as a yardstick to attack Israel , and whilst there is no cease fire that will continue . Where as to me the quickest and most effective way of getting aid in and protecting innocent palestians would be a hostage handover and a cease fire enabling aid to be supplied and possible other solutions , but that would require pointing fingers at hammas I guessYou haven't. That's why I asked the question. Are the hostages lives worth more than Tens of thousands of Palestinians being massacred?
Surely the intention of the Israelis is to kill Hamas? Now Hamas are basically strapping babies to their fronts and daring the Israelis to shoot knowing the outrage this would cause if they do shoot. What would you do if someone was coming to kill your family with a baby strapped to them? Let them kill your family or shoot knowing for certain that the innocent baby will die? So come on, what would you do? Kill a baby or let your family be killed?
Is that all you can say?If those two sites are all you've read about the peace process I'm not surprised that's your opinion.
There's plenty of material about the sticking points on the various proposed peace deals.
I'm not even sure it's worth apportioning "blame", rather than seeking to understand what the sticking points were - and what in the future might be done to unstick those points.
Ok, assuming you are saying you will kill the innocent baby to save your family. Let's say your family is 4 members and there are ten terrorists with babies strapped to their chests. Do you now kill the 10 terrorists and 10 innocent babies to 'defend' your family or let your 4 strong family be killed to save the 10 innocent babies?I think that's a really poor analogy because you are painting a picture of a small loss (albeit a baby) for a large gain, i.e. multiple lives saved, whereas what we are seeing in Gaza is the opposite. 10,000 dead and counting is it now? How many dead is acceptable to you? 20,000? 100,000? 1m?
I'll give you a MUCH better analogy - as I have posted on here previously. A madman with a gun shoots a load of innocent people and then barricades himself into an empty property with a couple of hostages. Do the police say "fuck it let's blow the house up and sod the hostages"? No, they do not.
The trouble with that analogy is there isn't just one madman there are10s of thousands of them.I think that's a really poor analogy because you are painting a picture of a small loss (albeit a baby) for a large gain, i.e. multiple lives saved, whereas what we are seeing in Gaza is the opposite. 10,000 dead and counting is it now? How many dead is acceptable to you? 20,000? 100,000? 1m?
I'll give you a MUCH better analogy - as I have posted on here previously. A madman with a gun shoots a load of innocent people and then barricades himself into an empty property with a couple of hostages. Do the police say "fuck it let's blow the house up and sod the hostages"? No, they do not.
That's the reason I'm shocked people are not shouting for a cease fire , it seems to me that to some innocent palaestian deaths are only used as a yardstick to attack Israel , and whilst there is no cease fire that will continue . Where as to me the quickest and most effective way of getting aid in and protecting innocent palestians would be a hostage handover and a cease fire enabling aid to be supplied and possible other solutions , but that would require pointing fingers at hammas I guess
Ok, assuming you are saying you will kill the innocent baby to save your family. Let's say your family is 4 members and there are ten terrorists with babies strapped to their chests. Do you now kill the 10 terrorists and 10 innocent babies to 'defend' your family or let your 4 strong family be killed to save the 10 innocent babies?
Now I don't particularly want you to answer what is an hypothetical moral problem but it is roughly where the Israelis are. Do they leave Hamas in place in the certain knowledge that they will kill Israeli innocents again or do they try and kill Hamas with the certain knowledge that Palestinian innocents are killed? It's not a simple game of maths where we pick the option where the fewest innocents die, if it's your innocents who die then that greatly changes things.
I think it would be apt to quote the specific laws you are referring to rather than some blaise reference to common law on such a serious subject. Btw I'm fully supportive of any transgressions you care to mention to be dealt with in the strongest possible manner.You might want to look up the word "defending" because what Israel are doing right now cannot possibly be considered as defending itself.
In common law - or indeed any law I think - defence has to be proportional. You cannot reasonably defend yourself against a kid with a pea shooter by shooting him with an AK47. Let alone shooting his mum, dad, sisters and brothers as well.
I think everyone agrees with this analogy but the reality is very different because what do you want to happen to enact it recognising the options on the table? Let's say Israel stops right now but Hamas doesn't and carries on the war it started, what's next then?I think that's a really poor analogy because you are painting a picture of a small loss (albeit a baby) for a large gain, i.e. multiple lives saved, whereas what we are seeing in Gaza is the opposite. 10,000 dead and counting is it now? How many dead is acceptable to you? 20,000? 100,000? 1m?
I'll give you a MUCH better analogy - as I have posted on here previously. A madman with a gun shoots a load of innocent people and then barricades himself into an empty property with a couple of hostages. Do the police say "fuck it let's blow the house up and sod the hostages"? No, they do not.
I think that their objective is to eliminate Hammas , however, I'm more concerned about the fastest solution to save innocent livesWhat do you think the objective of the Israeli government is? To free the hostages or to eliminate Hamas?
If you think it's the former, fine have a ceasefire, free the hostages and start negotiating. If you think it's the latter, why would Hamas give up the hostages? And if you think it's the latter, given what has happened in the West Bank, why do you think that even that will bring about a peaceful outcome?
I am not even sure that either of those are the actual objective, but we will see, I suppose.
I think fact checking is important. They were Peace protesters who did the beating up.I see a veteran poppy seller, one Jim Henderson, had the crap beaten out of him by Palestnian protesters at Endinbtough Station.
It was only a matter of time.
The terror in this child’s eyes is truly heartbreaking.
When you “stand with Israel”, you stand with a terrorist state, plain and simple. No morals, no humanity.
Carries on the war it(Hamas) started!I think everyone agrees with this analogy but the reality is very different because what do you want to happen to enact it recognising the options on the table? Let's say Israel stops right now but Hamas doesn't and carries on the war it started, what's next then?
What's next for the hostages? Does Israel negotiate their return but at what cost? The release of hundreds of Hamas prisoners? What a cracking deal!
After what happened on the 7th October would you not say that negotiating with Hamas is almost an insult to Israeli's? That's what the US did straight after 9/11, they sat down with Bin Laden and negotiated with Al'Qaeda..... Or maybe not.
That some of the demonstrators are violent therefore all the protestor's are violent, you can see where this is leading at least I hope you can, some Jews are advocating the forced transfer of millions of Palestinians and confestation of their land, some have formed themselves into militias on the West Bank and are murdering and torching houses and cars with impunity in fact you would say that they are behaving in a similar manner to the fascists therefore all Jews are..........................I see a veteran poppy seller, one Jim Henderson, had the crap beaten out of him by Palestnian protesters at Endinbtough Station.
It was only a matter of time.
Sorry mate, whilst I agree about a sovereign state being able to defend itself this isn’t that.I’m on the side of a sovereign state defending itself and its citizens from a terrorist organisation and its attack that killed 1400.
Normally, 99% would be in favour and it would be tomorrows chip paper but Israel are involved and Palestinians are involved and for many it becomes an ideological battle that has to be won.
Peace is what has to happen. A viable 2 state solution is what has to happen and both Hamas and the Netanyahu right wing governments need to cease to exist and more moderate leaderships be in place to make the above a realistic goal.
Unfortunately, we are not there right now, attack was carried out by Hamas and Israel has declared war and won’t stop until they are told to stop by the USA.
I’ve stated that a release of the hostages would imo bring enough pressure from allies and the USA to bring about a ceasefire from Israel and one hopefully Hamas would stick to and from there, talks and a resolution but it’s years away if at all possible and so many changes are needed for it to have a realistic chance of working.
Hopefully it all stops asap and innocent civilians all over the region can be saved but I’m not confident right now.
It’s not as bad at all. One is a terrorist organisation and the other is a sovereign state who should be above all this.Hamas yet again trying to tell the world that no innocent Israeli men, women or children where targeted or killed on October 7th.
It’s as bad as Israel saying no innocent men, women or children are killed during their bombings.
Sorry mate, whilst I agree about a sovereign state being able to defend itself this isn’t that.
This is vengeance and nothing more and all talk of anything else is just bollocks.
When Abedi bombed the arena should we have murdered his whole family to make sure we got them all?
Because that’s what this is now, just keep killing all Palestinians to ensure no more attacks, forget the fact that these are innocent men women and children.
It’s fucking barbaric and should be condemned by anyone who has any compassion or empathy.
Makes me sick thinking about what these kids are going through.
All good points mate and I don't pretend for one moment to have all the answers.I think everyone agrees with this analogy but the reality is very different because what do you want to happen to enact it recognising the options on the table? Let's say Israel stops right now but Hamas doesn't and carries on the war it started, what's next then?
What's next for the hostages? Does Israel negotiate their return but at what cost? The release of hundreds of Hamas prisoners? What a cracking deal!
After what happened on the 7th October would you not say that negotiating with Hamas is almost an insult to Israeli's? That's what the US did straight after 9/11, they sat down with Bin Laden and negotiated with Al'Qaeda..... Or maybe not.