NATO a mercainery force

PaleBlue said:
Ask anyone who lost a relative on the Pan Am flight that was brought down on Lockerbie by state sponsored Libyan terrorists. I hope he gets staked out on the desert floor and fed to the birds.

Actually the case that a large number of the relatives of lockerbie victims simply don't believe that the plane was brought down by the libyans. Check it out for yourself but try an internet search rather than reading the sun . . you'll be surprised to learn that the 'popular' view put by the red tops can be little more than cheap propaganda of the kind that helped keep blair in power when we murdered 180,000 men, women and children in the very first night of the missile attacks on iraq. . attacks in reprisal for less than 6,000 killed in the 9/11 attacks that were carried out by saudi's -15 of the 18 involved were from saudi arabia. The relatives of the innocents murdered in that illegal western attack (dropping more weapon power in one night than was dropped on civilian areas in europe in the whole of the 2nd world war) know exactly who was to blame . . us.

Oh, and when you're on about state terrorism - think a little about the way that the usa sponsored the ira . . to the degree that even McDonalds were putting funding terrorism directly and with the blessings of the white house.

Moreover . . just try to think and when you've mastered that art then feel free to give an opinion - and people might just take you seriously.
 
tueartsboots said:
PaleBlue said:
burning blue soul said:
mate, the guy is saying that, as usual, the west goes in pretending to be humanitarian and unbased, when they are anything but.

there will come a time when the mouse will roar and it wil be heard in washington. the u.s. is now treating the whole planet with a lack of respect and if it cant bring about capitalism by diplomacy, then the gun is the next option.

libya = oil by the way.

I don't agree with Yank foreign policy, and little good has come from their intervention in localised issues since the second world war, but people should remember that if they hadn't got stuck in then we'd probably be speaking German now, those of us deemed fit for better than the death camps or slave labour. A lot of young GIs are buried all over Europe or lying at the bottom of the English channel. They were there when we needed them more than ever, I think we still owe them some support. The time of the true dictator is over, and if you think civilians in Libya were living it up under Gadaffi and not living in fear of disappearing for saying something out of line then you're dead wrong.
They weren't there when we needed them, they were forced into both world wars-they most certainly did not want to get involved.
WW1 was the sinking of the Lusitania of the coast of Ireland by a U-Boat-most passengers were American citizens-in 1916 that brought them into it.
Pearl Harbor in 1942 brought them into it as Japan had an alliance with Germany.

They were happy to supply arms and weaponry at a hefty price (we only paid it off about 6 years ago, same time as US economy collapsed funnily enough but that's a different issue-possibly)

Glad you mentioned Ireland - same country who wouldn't let us base planes on the west coast that could have saved thousands of seamen from the Wolf packs. Regardless of the motive, the Yanks, Canadians, NZ, Oz and others who crushed the Third Reich are our allies, and I'll back them the way they backed us then and since.
 
hisroyalblueness said:
PaleBlue said:
Ask anyone who lost a relative on the Pan Am flight that was brought down on Lockerbie by state sponsored Libyan terrorists. I hope he gets staked out on the desert floor and fed to the birds.

Actually the case that a large number of the relatives of lockerbie victims simply don't believe that the plane was brought down by the libyans. Check it out for yourself but try an internet search rather than reading the sun . . you'll be surprised to learn that the 'popular' view put by the red tops can be little more than cheap propaganda of the kind that helped keep blair in power when we murdered 180,000 men, women and children in the very first night of the missile attacks on iraq. . attacks in reprisal for less than 6,000 killed in the 9/11 attacks that were carried out by saudi's -15 of the 18 involved were from saudi arabia. The relatives of the innocents murdered in that illegal western attack (dropping more weapon power in one night than was dropped on civilian areas in europe in the whole of the 2nd world war) know exactly who was to blame . . us.

Oh, and when you're on about state terrorism - think a little about the way that the usa sponsored the ira . . to the degree that even McDonalds were putting funding terrorism directly and with the blessings of the white house.

Moreover . . just try to think and when you've mastered that art then feel free to give an opinion - and people might just take you seriously.

Talking of being taken seriously..... the whole McDonalds / IRA myth was competely debunked years ago.
 
PaleBlue said:
tueartsboots said:
PaleBlue said:
I don't agree with Yank foreign policy, and little good has come from their intervention in localised issues since the second world war, but people should remember that if they hadn't got stuck in then we'd probably be speaking German now, those of us deemed fit for better than the death camps or slave labour. A lot of young GIs are buried all over Europe or lying at the bottom of the English channel. They were there when we needed them more than ever, I think we still owe them some support. The time of the true dictator is over, and if you think civilians in Libya were living it up under Gadaffi and not living in fear of disappearing for saying something out of line then you're dead wrong.
They weren't there when we needed them, they were forced into both world wars-they most certainly did not want to get involved.
WW1 was the sinking of the Lusitania of the coast of Ireland by a U-Boat-most passengers were American citizens-in 1916 that brought them into it.
Pearl Harbor in 1942 brought them into it as Japan had an alliance with Germany.

They were happy to supply arms and weaponry at a hefty price (we only paid it off about 6 years ago, same time as US economy collapsed funnily enough but that's a different issue-possibly)

Glad you mentioned Ireland - same country who wouldn't let us base planes on the west coast that could have saved thousands of seamen from the Wolf packs. Regardless of the motive, the Yanks, Canadians, NZ, Oz and others who crushed the Third Reich are our allies, and I'll back them the way they backed us then and since.
The Free State was technically in conflict with mainland Britain but many Free State citizens joined the British Army in WW1.
In WW2 although a separate country, they still didn't like us very much.
It's a myth that the Free State allowed U-Boats to dock, propaganda from Northern Irish Protestants to perpetuate the myth that Fenians are soulless and evil.
 
tueartsboots said:
PaleBlue said:
tueartsboots said:
They weren't there when we needed them, they were forced into both world wars-they most certainly did not want to get involved.
WW1 was the sinking of the Lusitania of the coast of Ireland by a U-Boat-most passengers were American citizens-in 1916 that brought them into it.
Pearl Harbor in 1942 brought them into it as Japan had an alliance with Germany.

They were happy to supply arms and weaponry at a hefty price (we only paid it off about 6 years ago, same time as US economy collapsed funnily enough but that's a different issue-possibly)

Glad you mentioned Ireland - same country who wouldn't let us base planes on the west coast that could have saved thousands of seamen from the Wolf packs. Regardless of the motive, the Yanks, Canadians, NZ, Oz and others who crushed the Third Reich are our allies, and I'll back them the way they backed us then and since.
The Free State was technically in conflict with mainland Britain but many Free State citizens joined the British Army in WW1.
In WW2 although a separate country, they still didn't like us very much.
It's a myth that the Free State allowed U-Boats to dock, propaganda from Northern Irish Protestants to perpetuate the myth that Fenians are soulless and evil.

I never said they allowed U-Boats to dock. I said they wouldn't allow us to base planes there that could have helped save our sailors from U-Boats. Granted many Irish fought against the Nazis and the Irish regiments of the British Army were skilled and valiant men who gave lives for the greater good. I'm not a "my country right or wrong" type, but I do believe in a time where the government is stripping our armed forces of any real tackle we should stick with the yanks rather than a middle eastern oil baron whose fed off his country's carcass ever since he killed off anyone else he perceived as a threat.
 
PaleBlue said:
tueartsboots said:
PaleBlue said:
Glad you mentioned Ireland - same country who wouldn't let us base planes on the west coast that could have saved thousands of seamen from the Wolf packs. Regardless of the motive, the Yanks, Canadians, NZ, Oz and others who crushed the Third Reich are our allies, and I'll back them the way they backed us then and since.
The Free State was technically in conflict with mainland Britain but many Free State citizens joined the British Army in WW1.
In WW2 although a separate country, they still didn't like us very much.
It's a myth that the Free State allowed U-Boats to dock, propaganda from Northern Irish Protestants to perpetuate the myth that Fenians are soulless and evil.

I never said they allowed U-Boats to dock. I said they wouldn't allow us to base planes there that could have helped save our sailors from U-Boats. Granted many Irish fought against the Nazis and the Irish regiments of the British Army were skilled and valiant men who gave lives for the greater good. I'm not a "my country right or wrong" type, but I do believe in a time where the government is stripping our armed forces of any real tackle we should stick with the yanks rather than a middle eastern oil baron whose fed off his country's carcass ever since he killed off anyone else he perceived as a threat.
Apologies, just adding another fact in the same vein as Cheesys comment on Maccie D's.
Problem I find is that Bush JR manipulated the UN- he told them the US would disregard them unless they adopted his principles (little bit of sick came up then)- NATO is there on UN mandate 1973- something Russia and China vetoed.
NATO is there "legally" but not morally.
Saying that, Gadaffi would have wiped out 3/4 of the Libyan population if NATO hadn't of stepped in.
Was in Tunisia last month, they had a very peaceful overthrowing of their government earlier this year but there were still burn't out vehicles and derelict Police stations.
 
hisroyalblueness said:
PaleBlue said:
Ask anyone who lost a relative on the Pan Am flight that was brought down on Lockerbie by state sponsored Libyan terrorists. I hope he gets staked out on the desert floor and fed to the birds.

Actually the case that a large number of the relatives of lockerbie victims simply don't believe that the plane was brought down by the libyans. Check it out for yourself but try an internet search rather than reading the sun . . you'll be surprised to learn that the 'popular' view put by the red tops can be little more than cheap propaganda of the kind that helped keep blair in power when we murdered 180,000 men, women and children in the very first night of the missile attacks on iraq. . attacks in reprisal for less than 6,000 killed in the 9/11 attacks that were carried out by saudi's -15 of the 18 involved were from saudi arabia. The relatives of the innocents murdered in that illegal western attack (dropping more weapon power in one night than was dropped on civilian areas in europe in the whole of the 2nd world war) know exactly who was to blame . . us.

Oh, and when you're on about state terrorism - think a little about the way that the usa sponsored the ira . . to the degree that even McDonalds were putting funding terrorism directly and with the blessings of the white house.

Moreover . . just try to think and when you've mastered that art then feel free to give an opinion - and people might just take you seriously.

Who paid the IRA? Nutters from Nor-Aid collecting dimes in buckets? Or Petro-dollars from the guy we should feel sorry for now because we're a bunch of bullies? (below from Wikipedia)

Gaddafi supported terrorist organizations that held anti-Western sympathies around the world.[123] The Foreign Minister of Libya called the massacres "heroic acts".[124] Gaddafi fueled a number of Islamist and communist terrorist groups in the Philippines, including the New People’s Army of the Communist Party of the Philippines and the Moro Islamic Liberation Front. The country still struggles with their murders and kidnappings.[32][123][125][126][126][127] In Indonesia the Organisasi Papua Merdeka was a Libyan backed militant group. Vanuatu's ruling party also enjoyed Libyan support.[125] In Australia he attempted to radicalize Australian Aborigines, left-wing unions,[128] Arab Australians,[128] and one Labor Party politician, Bill Hartley, against the "imperialist" government of Australia.[40][40][125][125][128][128] In New Zealand he financed the Workers Revolutionary Party[128][129] and attempted to radicalize Maoris.[125]
In 1979, Gaddafi said he supported the Iranian Revolution, and hoped that "...he (the Shah) ends up in the hands of the Iranian people, where he deserves."[130]
Gaddafi explicitly stated that he would kill Libyan dissidents that had escaped from Libya, raising tensions with refugee countries and European governments. In 1985 he stated that he would continue to support the Red Army Faction, the Red Brigades, and the Irish Republican Army (I.R.A.) as long as European countries supported anti-Gaddafi Libyans.[82] In 1976, after a series of terrorist attacks by the Provisional IRA, Gaddafi announced that "the bombs which are convulsing Britain and breaking its spirit are the bombs of Libyan people. We have sent them to the Irish revolutionaries so that the British will pay the price for their past deeds".[82] In April 1984 some Libyan refugees in London protested the execution of two dissidents. Libyan diplomats shot at 11 people and killed Yvonne Fletcher, a British policewoman. The incident led to the cessation of diplomatic relations between the United Kingdom and Libya for over a decade.[131] In June 1984 Gaddafi asserted that he wanted his agents to assassinate dissident refugees even when they were on pilgrimage in the holy city of Mecca and, in August that year, a Libyan plot in Mecca was thwarted by Saudi Arabian police.[42]
On 5 April 1986 Libyan agents bombed "La Belle" nightclub in West Berlin, killing three and injuring 229. Gaddafi's plan was intercepted by Western intelligence and more detailed information was retrieved some years later from Stasi archives. Libyan agents who had carried out the operation, from the Libyan embassy in East Germany, were prosecuted by the reunited Germany in the 1990s.[132]
Following the 1986 bombing of Libya, Gaddafi intensified his terror attacks on Americans. He financed the Nation of Islam and Al-Rakr to support their gang activities and violence. Members of the gang were arrested in 1986 for planning to bomb government buildings and bring down American planes.[133] In 1986 Libyan state television announced that Libya was training suicide squads to attack American and European interests. He began financing the IRA again in 1986, to retaliate against the British for harboring American fighter planes.[134]
Gaddafi had close ties with two European right-wing heads of state, Slobodan Milošević and Jörg Haider, who were both anti-Islamic politicians. Jörg Haider of Austria was reported as having received tens of millions of dollars from both Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein.[135] Gaddafi also aligned himself with the Orthodox Serbs against Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo, supporting Milošević even when he was charged with large-scale ethnic cleansing against Albanians in Kosovo.[136][137][138]
Gaddafi developed a friendship with Hugo Chávez and in March 2009 a stadium was named after the Venezuelan leader.[139] Documents seized during a 2008 raid on FARC showed that both Chavez and Gaddafi backed the group.[109] Gaddafi developed an ongoing relationship with FARC, becoming acquainted with its leaders at meetings of revolutionary groups which were regularly hosted in Libya.[108][109] In September 2009, at the Second Africa-South America Summit on Isla Margarita, Venezuela, Gaddafi joined Chávez in calling for an "anti-imperialist" front across Africa and Latin America. Gaddafi proposed the establishment of a South Atlantic Treaty Organization to rival NATO, saying: "The world’s powers want to continue to hold on to their power. Now we have to fight to build our own power."[140]
Gaddafi also sought close relations with the Soviet Union and purchased arms from the Soviet bloc.
 
PaleBlue said:
tueartsboots said:
PaleBlue said:
I don't agree with Yank foreign policy, and little good has come from their intervention in localised issues since the second world war, but people should remember that if they hadn't got stuck in then we'd probably be speaking German now, those of us deemed fit for better than the death camps or slave labour. A lot of young GIs are buried all over Europe or lying at the bottom of the English channel. They were there when we needed them more than ever, I think we still owe them some support. The time of the true dictator is over, and if you think civilians in Libya were living it up under Gadaffi and not living in fear of disappearing for saying something out of line then you're dead wrong.
They weren't there when we needed them, they were forced into both world wars-they most certainly did not want to get involved.
WW1 was the sinking of the Lusitania of the coast of Ireland by a U-Boat-most passengers were American citizens-in 1916 that brought them into it.
Pearl Harbor in 1942 brought them into it as Japan had an alliance with Germany.

They were happy to supply arms and weaponry at a hefty price (we only paid it off about 6 years ago, same time as US economy collapsed funnily enough but that's a different issue-possibly)

Glad you mentioned Ireland - same country who wouldn't let us base planes on the west coast that could have saved thousands of seamen from the Wolf packs. Regardless of the motive, the Yanks, Canadians, NZ, Oz and others who crushed the Third Reich are our allies, and I'll back them the way they backed us then and since.

Are you seriously saying that when it comes to immensely, deadly serious issues like war, death and humanitarianism your view is (largely, at least) based not on what is 'right' but on some sort of playground "well, he stuck up for me once" moral code?
 
JohnMaddocksAxe said:
PaleBlue said:
tueartsboots said:
They weren't there when we needed them, they were forced into both world wars-they most certainly did not want to get involved.
WW1 was the sinking of the Lusitania of the coast of Ireland by a U-Boat-most passengers were American citizens-in 1916 that brought them into it.
Pearl Harbor in 1942 brought them into it as Japan had an alliance with Germany.

They were happy to supply arms and weaponry at a hefty price (we only paid it off about 6 years ago, same time as US economy collapsed funnily enough but that's a different issue-possibly)

Glad you mentioned Ireland - same country who wouldn't let us base planes on the west coast that could have saved thousands of seamen from the Wolf packs. Regardless of the motive, the Yanks, Canadians, NZ, Oz and others who crushed the Third Reich are our allies, and I'll back them the way they backed us then and since.

Are you seriously saying that when it comes to immensely, deadly serious issues like war, death and humanitarianism your view is (largely, at least) based not on what is 'right' but on some sort of playground "well, he stuck up for me once" moral code?
That's how diplomacy works JMA.
 
JohnMaddocksAxe said:
PaleBlue said:
tueartsboots said:
They weren't there when we needed them, they were forced into both world wars-they most certainly did not want to get involved.
WW1 was the sinking of the Lusitania of the coast of Ireland by a U-Boat-most passengers were American citizens-in 1916 that brought them into it.
Pearl Harbor in 1942 brought them into it as Japan had an alliance with Germany.

They were happy to supply arms and weaponry at a hefty price (we only paid it off about 6 years ago, same time as US economy collapsed funnily enough but that's a different issue-possibly)

Glad you mentioned Ireland - same country who wouldn't let us base planes on the west coast that could have saved thousands of seamen from the Wolf packs. Regardless of the motive, the Yanks, Canadians, NZ, Oz and others who crushed the Third Reich are our allies, and I'll back them the way they backed us then and since.

Are you seriously saying that when it comes to immensely, deadly serious issues like war, death and humanitarianism your view is (largely, at least) based not on what is 'right' but on some sort of playground "well, he stuck up for me once" moral code?

No, I'm saying take the long view, not what is currently fashionable and makes you out to be some kind of enigmatic deep thinker who sees evil in the way we live our lives. Do you think the average Libyan has had any kind of freedom to express opinions like these in the past 20 or so years? Do you think that's 'right'?
 

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