Negative players or negative tactics...

[Rammy Blue]

We've probably got the 4th or 5th best squad in the league, and we're currently in that position too, so I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion.

I don't agree with that at all.

I think you could make an argument that we have as good a squad as anyone in the premier league. Chelsea possibly have more all-round ability and United have Rooney. All have their strengths and weaknesses of course. A double over Chelsea, victories over Man United and Arsenal speak volumes.

I think we're underachieveing. I think we have a better squad than Villa, spurs and Liverpool without a doubt.

It's all very well, Dave, saying that we have as good a squad as anyone as that comprises naming 20 or so players from each of the main sides, what is far more telling though is to look at the "engine room" players of each of those squads.

It's hard to dominate games from the off when you have De Jong and Barry as your main central midfielders as neither can move with the ball or play a decent pass, hence our requirement of getting the ball wide which on the whole is rather predictable.

 

[BobKowalski]

I agree, I just don't think the players we have will ever be able to make a team, there is no balance between defence and attack, and often no link, so we either defend well and don't look very exciting, or we go gung ho and concede to many. Hence why both managers have struggled to find the balance. I guess my point is that its not Mancini (or MH's) tactics, its just the players don't fit togther. When they do click we look good (second half yesterday), but all too often this doesn't happen.

Many were heralding the Chelsea victory as some kind of break through, but that first half was one of our worst displays this season (until yesterday).

The manager should be able to motivate the team to play, of course, but neither manager this season has managed to do it consistently, and no amount of Mourinho will either in my opinion.

Sadly as is usual at City, more change required.

Again, can't argue with much of that...whether its the players, the chopping and changing of managers and systems, or just individual inability to raise themselves, we have a strange mix of players in the dressing room...

I recently described it as "brittle". There are no leaders in that squad, and other than Tevez, no players who can impose themselves upon a match with any degree of authority. In many respects it's no wonder we seem all at sea at times. This season has been played out under the backdrop of intense media scrutiny, the sacking of a manager who was very very popular amongst large portions of the senior squad, and countless off the field issues which have made us headline news...

...I actually think we are still doing very very well considering all those factors, and I still think Mancini will get us to 4th...

Agreed yet the team has fought back to salvage points from games many times this season and we are still technically the hardest team to beat so there is something there, some resilience alongside the brittleness.

I think this is what is most frustrating - the sense we are so close and the prize just in reach yet I still half expect us to fumble at a crucial moment.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Well I think we're streets ahead of those 3 teams in terms of quality and depth.

From our squad the only players that I can think of that would walk in to those teams would be Tevez, Bellamy, Ade & Shay. Hardly streets ahead.

You have to be kidding.

How many of those three teams have a bench like ours yesterday?

None.

 

[Lancet Fluke]

Well I think we're streets ahead of those 3 teams in terms of quality and depth.

From our squad the only players that I can think of that would walk in to those teams would be Tevez, Bellamy, Ade & Shay. Hardly streets ahead.

Barry walked into Villa's team last year and Liverpool were desperate to sign him. I'm pretty sure Adam Johnson would get into Liverpool's team and I don't reckon any of them would say no to Lescott either. The quality of the players isn't the problem in my opinion, it is getting them to play as a team which is certainly something Spurs and Villa do.

 

[Anonymous]

From our squad the only players that I can think of that would walk in to those teams would be Tevez, Bellamy, Ade & Shay. Hardly streets ahead.

You have to be kidding.

How many of those three teams have a bench like ours yesterday?

None.

If you think that clubs would be clambering over themselves to sign Taylor, Sylvinho, Toure, Ireland, Viera & Santa Cruz then you're very much mistaken.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

I don't agree with that at all.

I think you could make an argument that we have as good a squad as anyone in the premier league. Chelsea possibly have more all-round ability and United have Rooney. All have their strengths and weaknesses of course. A double over Chelsea, victories over Man United and Arsenal speak volumes.

I think we're underachieveing. I think we have a better squad than Villa, spurs and Liverpool without a doubt.

It's all very well, Dave, saying that we have as good a squad as anyone as that comprises naming 20 or so players from each of the main sides, what is far more telling though is to look at the "engine room" players of each of those squads.

It's hard to dominate games from the off when you have De Jong and Barry as your main central midfielders as neither can move with the ball or play a decent pass, hence our requirement of getting the ball wide which on the whole is rather predictable.

The manager has more than enough resources to put a winning team out.

If we don't finish fifth it is not down to limited player ability or an unbalanced squad. Where has this little myth come from? People seem to be swallowing it hook line and sinker.

Barry and De Jong are top class international midfielders for two of the best teams in Europe. De Jong is a negative passer, I agree, but that's what he's there to do, break up play. Barry can pass. I agree his form has been patchy, but there's no doubt he can pass as he's done it all his career.

And maybe get these midfielders playing in the opponent's half of the field a bit more, not on the edge of our own box. If you want more passing in the midfield, get Stephen Ireland in the fucking team and get him playing well.

We have the personnel. We just haven't got them playing as a unit properly.

 

[Anonymous]

From our squad the only players that I can think of that would walk in to those teams would be Tevez, Bellamy, Ade & Shay. Hardly streets ahead.

Barry walked into Villa's team last year and Liverpool were desperate to sign him. I'm pretty sure Adam Johnson would get into Liverpool's team and I don't reckon any of them would say no to Lescott either. The quality of the players isn't the problem in my opinion, it is getting them to play as a team which is certainly something Spurs and Villa do.

Have Villa missed Barry? Johnson, whilst looking promising, is unproven yet. Lescott is a slightly above average Premier league defender.

Some on here look at our players through blue tinted specs, or even worse (not directed at you), have their own agenda to fill.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

You have to be kidding.

How many of those three teams have a bench like ours yesterday?

None.

If you think that clubs would be clambering over themselves to sign Taylor, Sylvinho, Toure, Ireland, Viera & Santa Cruz then you're very much mistaken.

You've totally moved the goalposts in two posts! Not one of those players has been starting for us.

Oh, and I would say that every one of the top 4 would be interested in Stephen Ireland.

In fact more than one of them have enquired and remain interested.

I stand by my point, you do our squad a huge disservice. We have miles more depth in pretty much any position than them.

 

[moomba]

it is getting them to play as a team which is certainly something Spurs and Villa do.

The same Spurs that have got 2 points less than us since Christmas and the same Villa that have 10 points less than us since Christmas (played 2 less)?

 

[cleavers]

You have to be kidding.

How many of those three teams have a bench like ours yesterday?

None.

If you think that clubs would be clambering over themselves to sign Taylor, Sylvinho, Toure, Ireland, Viera & Santa Cruz then you're very much mistaken.

But these are all squad players, and I don't think we'd want many of their squad players either, that's what squads are about.

Ours is good, very good, on paper.

Its the team that's the problem, we don't really have one.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Barry walked into Villa's team last year and Liverpool were desperate to sign him. I'm pretty sure Adam Johnson would get into Liverpool's team and I don't reckon any of them would say no to Lescott either. The quality of the players isn't the problem in my opinion, it is getting them to play as a team which is certainly something Spurs and Villa do.

Have Villa missed Barry? Johnson, whilst looking promising, is unproven yet. Lescott is a slightly above average Premier league defender.

Some on here look at our players through blue tinted specs, or even worse (not directed at you), have their own agenda to fill.

What? Liverpool were desperate to sign Barry, and every Villa fan was desperate for him to stay.

Johnson's still a kid with promise who we can afford to have on the fringe of our squad. Unlike the other teams.

And you've lost all credibility, if you ever had any, in this argument quoting Lescott like that. I bet you prefer Dunne. don't you?<br /><br />-- Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:25 pm --<br /><br />

If you think that clubs would be clambering over themselves to sign Taylor, Sylvinho, Toure, Ireland, Viera & Santa Cruz then you're very much mistaken.

But these are all squad players, and I don't think we'd want many of their squad players either, that's what squads are about.

Ours is good, very good, on paper.

Its the team that's the problem, we don't really have one.

I'm glad there are others who can see this.

 

[moomba]

The manager has more than enough resources to put a winning team out.

And by and large he has put a winning team out.

Our points per game under Mancini is as good as the vast majority of the league, on track for over 72 points if we'd done as well over an entire season.

 

[Anonymous]

If you think that clubs would be clambering over themselves to sign Taylor, Sylvinho, Toure, Ireland, Viera & Santa Cruz then you're very much mistaken.

You've totally moved the goalposts in two posts! Not one of those players has been starting for us.

Oh, and I would say that every one of the top 4 would be interested in Stephen Ireland.

In fact more than one of them have enquired and remain interested.

I stand by my point, you do our squad a huge disservice. We have miles more depth in pretty much any position than them.

It was you that asked in your original post who would have had a bench like ours yesterday. That was our bench yesterday (plus Johnson).

Now who's moved the goalposts?

 

[Lancet Fluke]

Barry walked into Villa's team last year and Liverpool were desperate to sign him. I'm pretty sure Adam Johnson would get into Liverpool's team and I don't reckon any of them would say no to Lescott either. The quality of the players isn't the problem in my opinion, it is getting them to play as a team which is certainly something Spurs and Villa do.

Have Villa missed Barry? Johnson, whilst looking promising, is unproven yet. Lescott is a slightly above average Premier league defender.

Some on here look at our players through blue tinted specs, or even worse (not directed at you), have their own agenda to fill.

Liverpool have nobody of any note at all who can play on the left, certainly nobody as good as Johnson (I know Mancini plays him on the right), even if he is relatively unproven. Lescott had a bad time earlier this season as did every other defender during the whole of Hughes's tenure, but is now coming back to his best. Personally, I'd sooner have him than Skrtal, Agger, Dawson or Collins. I'd rather have Barry than Lucas and I suppose it's much of a muchness between Barry and Petrov. It is very difficult to do this because you're saying players who would walk into ALL 3 of the other teams but I reckon a fair proprotion of our players would get into at least 1 or 2 of the other teams and that overall our squad, on paper at least, is better certainly than Villa and Liverpool and probably better than Spurs.

 

[BobKowalski]

If you think that clubs would be clambering over themselves to sign Taylor, Sylvinho, Toure, Ireland, Viera & Santa Cruz then you're very much mistaken.

You've totally moved the goalposts in two posts! Not one of those players has been starting for us.

Oh, and I would say that every one of the top 4 would be interested in Stephen Ireland.

In fact more than one of them have enquired and remain interested.

I stand by my point, you do our squad a huge disservice. We have miles more depth in pretty much any position than them.

You brought up the bench and outside of Ireland none would interest a top 4 side and Ireland at the moment would not get a mention either.

Chelsea have a squad. We have a collection of players. Spurs are somewhere inbetween and Villa have a smaller squad but are a very cohesive unit because they have been buying to a long term plan over a number of years.

I think our squad is very good and definitely comparable to anyone else's in the PL and the fact we are still in pole position for 4th spot despite the fact it was put together in a hurry is I think something we should take satisfaction from. It is however unbalanced in midfield.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

You've totally moved the goalposts in two posts! Not one of those players has been starting for us.

Oh, and I would say that every one of the top 4 would be interested in Stephen Ireland.

In fact more than one of them have enquired and remain interested.

I stand by my point, you do our squad a huge disservice. We have miles more depth in pretty much any position than them.

It was you that asked in your original post who would have had a bench like ours yesterday. That was our bench yesterday (plus Johnson).

Now who's moved the goalposts?

You're all over the place mate.<br /><br />-- Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:44 pm --<br /><br />

You've totally moved the goalposts in two posts! Not one of those players has been starting for us.

Oh, and I would say that every one of the top 4 would be interested in Stephen Ireland.

In fact more than one of them have enquired and remain interested.

I stand by my point, you do our squad a huge disservice. We have miles more depth in pretty much any position than them.

You brought up the bench and outside of Ireland none would interest a top 4 side and Ireland at the moment would not get a mention either.

Chelsea have a squad. We have a collection of players. Spurs are somewhere inbetween and Villa have a smaller squad but are a very cohesive unit because they have been buying to a long term plan over a number of years.

I think our squad is very good and definitely comparable to anyone else's in the PL and the fact we are still in pole position for 4th spot despite the fact it was put together in a hurry is I think something we should take satisfaction from. It is however unbalanced in midfield.

A squad is a collection of players.

I can't believe I'm even having to argue this point.

I think if you sat down 100 people who were either knowledgeable fans of those three clubs or professional pundits, and asked them who had the strongest squad,I reckon you'd get 90% plus who would say us.

Yet some of our own fans don't rate players like Barry, Ireland and Lescott and claim they wouldn't get into those teams.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised....

 

[ono]

Well I think we're streets ahead of those 3 teams in terms of quality and depth.

From our squad the only players that I can think of that would walk in to those teams would be Tevez, Bellamy, Ade & Shay. Hardly streets ahead.

I don't think we are...

In terms of depth maybe we have a bigger squad than Villa and Liverpool. Spurs has Lennon, Bentley, King, Jenas and Huddlestone out at weekend and still won.

But looking at starting line-ups...

Gomes, Given, Reina and Friedel - Not much in it. Each have their qualities. Gomes have improved loads.

Dawson, Lescott, Carragher, Collins - Again, not a great deal in it. Collins playing really well.

King, Kompany, Agger, Dunne - Not much in it

Ekotto, Bridge, Insua, Warnock - Not much in it

Corluka, Richards, Johnson, Cuellar - We're probably poorest here

Palacios, De Jong, Mascherano, Petrov - Not much in it.

Modric, Zabaleta, Lucas, Milner - We lose

Kranjcar, Barry, Aquilani, Downing - Close

Bale, Bellamy, Gerrard, Young - Liverpool stronger

Defoe, Tevez, Kuyt, Agbonlahor - Us

Pavlyuchenko, Ade, Torres, Carew - Us and Liverpool



We've probably got the strongest fully fit bench, but i don't think there is much in it. That's probably why we're all so close to each other in the league.

 

[brian the blue]

the first half was bad, agreed? BUT why would you change a winning team? Mancini played the same team that had just beat Chelsea 4-2! (apart from he started SWP - which based on what he did when he came on for us and for england was the right thing to do) but for some reason it didnt work out.

He changed it and in the second half we carved them open at will and like Mancini said we could have had 6. I am usually moaning after a result like this but if we had even had an ounce of luck then we could have easily won 3-1.

I think we need to accept that it just wasnt our day, that we did well to come out of it with a point and that we just need to move on.

 

[BobKowalski]

It was you that asked in your original post who would have had a bench like ours yesterday. That was our bench yesterday (plus Johnson).

Now who's moved the goalposts?

You're all over the place mate.

-- Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:44 pm --

You brought up the bench and outside of Ireland none would interest a top 4 side and Ireland at the moment would not get a mention either.

Chelsea have a squad. We have a collection of players. Spurs are somewhere inbetween and Villa have a smaller squad but are a very cohesive unit because they have been buying to a long term plan over a number of years.

I think our squad is very good and definitely comparable to anyone else's in the PL and the fact we are still in pole position for 4th spot despite the fact it was put together in a hurry is I think something we should take satisfaction from. It is however unbalanced in midfield.

A squad is a collection of players.

I can't believe I'm even having to argue this point.

I think if you sat down 100 people who were either knowledgeable fans of those three clubs or professional pundits, and asked them who had the strongest squad,I reckon you'd get 90% plus who would say us.

Yet some of our own fans don't rate players like Barry, Ireland and Lescott and claim they wouldn't get into those teams.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised....

By squad I am referring to a cohesive and balanced unit that compliments the way the team is structured to play. Villa are a good example of this and so are Chelsea. Chelsea tried to play a more expressive game under Scolari and the wheels came off so they reverted back to type.

I do not think Hughes bought players with a specific gameplan in mind. I am not even sure he had a gameplan so yes it is unbalanced or if you like a collection of players. Real Madrid is also a collection of players rather than a squad so you know exactly what I mean.

I also said that despite the lack of strategy in terms of buying players we have a very good squad and is comparable to any other PL team so I have no idea why you are getting so stressed. Pointing out some shortcomings in the makeup of the squad is not grounds for getting your panties in a bunch.

 

[Anonymous]

By squad I am referring to a cohesive and balanced unit that compliments the way the team is structured to play. Villa are a good example of this and so are Chelsea. Chelsea tried to play a more expressive game under Scolari and the wheels came off so they reverted back to type.

I do not think Hughes bought players with a specific gameplan in mind. I am not even sure he had a gameplan so yes it is unbalanced or if you like a collection of players. Real Madrid is also a collection of players rather than a squad so you know exactly what I mean.

I also said that despite the lack of strategy in terms of buying players we have a very good squad and is comparable to any other PL team so I have no idea why you are getting so stressed. Pointing out some shortcomings in the makeup of the squad is not grounds for getting your panties in a bunch.

With respect BK - at the root of it all DD or myself are saying is that we have a squad which has for various reasons underperformed all season. People are contradicting that by saying the squad itself isn't that good, or is unbalanced. In both instances or totally disagree.

We're short on a box to box midfield player, and a solid right and left back. But we still have two very very good if not top class players for each position.

The "balanced and cohesive unit" which you talk about will not come from adding or subtracting more players, it will come from the manager knowing his best XI, and using them to the best of their capabilities, on a consistent basis...