meeesh
Well-Known Member
Not the biggest brain on a football field,but heart of a lion this guy,when he's good he's good
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Nicolas Otamendi - 2016/17 performances
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They did okay. Bit Komps was at fault for the 2nd and out of position for the 1st. So I won't say his performance was a ringing endorsement. Nor was Ota' s he was better than his partner but not as outstanding as in games past. Got docked by the ex rag at some point and got lucky and some help from Yaya against Ozil on another.Bumped this as again, I thought he was excellent today. Him and Vinnie look very strong indeed
So a decent game. Bit not great.
Again, this is a fallacy. Kompany is a good player in his own right. Perhaps the 2 are probably the best combo of all the possibilities. But to conclude with evidence that Kompany's presence helps him, it will have to be the case that he is having his better games when playing with Kompany.Kompany beside him is clearly a big help.
No game he has played with Kompany this season was amongst Ota' S top 5 games this season.
So how one concludes he is better with Kompany, seems more hope and expectation than fact to me . At the moment it isn't (probably because they actually haven't played much together). So lets give it time and let the evidence bare it out.
All these presumptive predictions just coz fans want it to be true, is the kinda conclusory analysis that gets facts stood on its head.
Again, this is a fallacy. Kompany is a good player in his own right. Perhaps the 2 are probably the best combo of all the possibilities. But to conclude with evidence that Kompany's presence helps him, it will have to be the case that he is having his better games when playing with Kompany.
No game he has played with Kompany this season was amongst Ota' S top 5 games this season.
So how one concludes he is better with Kompany, seems more hope and expectation than fact to me . At the moment it isn't (probably because they actually haven't played much together). So lets give it time and let the evidence bare it out.
All these presumptive predictions just coz fans want it to be true, is the kinda conclusory analysis that gets facts stood on its head.
Although Otamendi is talented and experienced, he's still rash and isn't a leader. I haven't been a fan this season at all, but in the last two games with Kompany beside him, Otamendi has done well. Kompany attacks everything and is a real dominant centre back, the type I feel Otamendi benefits playing beside.
A leader and a real captain in the back four makes a huge difference. Kompany is a real calming influence and his return has been a real positive in the defence for sure.
Otamendi and Stones didn't work because neither is a leader or an organiser. Kompany/Stones or Kompany/Otamendi would both be good partnerships IMO.
Again, my point is not that this can't be true. Its simply that the facts don't bare it out yet.Although Otamendi is talented and experienced, he's still rash and isn't a leader. I haven't been a fan this season at all, but in the last two games with Kompany beside him, Otamendi has done well. Kompany attacks everything and is a real dominant centre back, the type I feel Otamendi benefits playing beside.
A leader and a real captain in the back four makes a huge difference. Kompany is a real calming influence and his return has been a real positive in the defence for sure.
Otamendi and Stones didn't work because neither is a leader or an organiser. Kompany/Stones or Kompany/Otamendi would both be good partnerships IMO.
1. Otamendi's best games haven't occurred playing next to Kompany. But like I've said, that's probably due to the fact they haven't played together much. But as of now most of Ota's epic games happened partnering someone else.
2. Ota still puts in rash slides in dangerous half field situations (he did yesterday). So again Kompany's presence is not improving his decision making in the rashness department.
3. The only way he has improved next to Kompany, is that he commits fewer fouls, and that's because Kompany often gets there first to commit the fouls. So I don't know if I'll consider that a positive.
Fans just assume the nebulous "calming influence" claim as talking heads on tv say it and everybody just assumes its true.
Neither the number of chances, defensive breakdowns or # of rash decisions change in any appreciable way.
Like I explained on the Kompany thread last week when everyone Attributed our clean sheet to Kompany. I pointed out that even without Kompany we've been keeping clean sheet against powers tier teams for 2 months.
Its the upper tier teams with actual talent to finish their chances that we couldn't stop. And low and behold, we play a team with talent and the put 2 past us again.
Perhaps Kompany will eventually have an effect, but presently that effect isn't detectable anywhere other than in the beliefs of the believer.
Neville Kneville
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Again, my point is not that this can't be true. Its simply that the facts don't bare it out yet.
1. Otamendi's best games haven't occurred playing next to Kompany. But like I've said, that's probably due to the fact they haven't played together much. But as of now most of Ota's epic games happened partnering someone else.
2. Ota still puts in rash slides in dangerous half field situations (he did yesterday). So again Kompany's presence is not improving his decision making in the rashness department.
3. The only way he has improved next to Kompany, is that he commits fewer fouls, and that's because Kompany often gets there first to commit the fouls. So I don't know if I'll consider that a positive.
Fans just assume the nebulous "calming influence" claim as talking heads on tv say it and everybody just assumes its true.
Neither the number of chances, defensive breakdowns or # of rash decisions change in any appreciable way.
Like I explained on the Kompany thread last week when everyone Attributed our clean sheet to Kompany. I pointed out that even without Kompany we've been keeping clean sheet against powers tier teams for 2 months.
Its the upper tier teams with actual talent to finish their chances that we couldn't stop. And low and behold, we play a team with talent and the put 2 past us again.
Perhaps Kompany will eventually have an effect, but presently that effect isn't detectable anywhere other than in the beliefs of the believer.
The way Otamendi 'improved' playing next to Kompany, is that he had protection when he came out & got it wrong, As Kompany. for the most part, deliberately stayed back watching developments, when Otamendi came out, & had the ability to stop people in their tracks when it went wrong wheras Stones, Kolarov or indeed Otamendi himself etc often don't or can't, as we saw when he was yet again beaten on the inside (classic schoolboy defensive error) rather than forcing the player wide, 1v1 & that should have been the game over.
I thought Otamendi was close to motm for about 60-70 mins then his legs went & he became a bit of a liability, but Kompany covering Otamendi & on occasion vice versa was working pretty well. Unfortunately Clichy didn't bother trying to stop a cross & Arsenal equalised.
I don't know how to tell you this, but the highlighted is not supportive of the claim that a player has improved. And your quoting of the word "improve", suggests you don't think he has. Congrats, you've stumbled blindly into the right answer. He hasn't. He has always been this good.The way Otamendi 'improved' playing next to Kompany, is that he had protection when he came out & got it wrong, As Kompany. for the most part, deliberately stayed back watching developments, when Otamendi came out, & had the ability to stop people in their tracks when it went wrong wheras Stones, Kolarov or indeed Otamendi himself etc often don't or can't, as we saw when he was yet again beaten on the inside (classic schoolboy defensive error) rather than forcing the player wide, 1v1 & that should have been the game over.
I thought Otamendi was close to motm for about 60-70 mins then his legs went & he became a bit of a liability, but Kompany covering Otamendi & on occasion vice versa was working pretty well. Unfortunately Clichy didn't bother trying to stop a cross & Arsenal equalised.
As for claiming Otamendi or Stones lack the ability to "sometimes" stay back, well that's just silly, they do and have on many occasions (Including in this last game by your own admission).
The defense looked Pretty much like it always does, we have up few chances, and they scored onv2 of them. To be fair we might have even given up a few more clear cut chances than usual.
Kompany simply assumed the errors of whoever would have played instead. Committing unnecessary fouls including the one that led to the 2nd goal. Not to mention the earlier one on Ozil. Both were unnecessary.
But I'm sure if I check the post game or Kompany thread, I-d find where you pointed out these school boy errors, right? Or could it just be that you are selective with your critisms. :-)
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
I don't know how to tell you this, but the highlighted is not supportive of the claim that a player has improved. And your quoting of the word "improve", suggests you don't think he has. Congrats, you've stumbled blindly into the right answer. He hasn't. He has always been this good.
As for claiming Otamendi or Stones lack the ability to "sometimes" stay back, well that's just silly, they do and have on many occasions (Including in this last game by your own admission).
The defense looked Pretty much like it always does, we have up few chances, and they scored onv2 of them. To be fair we might have even given up a few more clear cut chances than usual.
Kompany simply assumed the errors of whoever would have played instead. Committing unnecessary fouls including the one that led to the 2nd goal. Not to mention the earlier one on Ozil. Both were unnecessary.
But I'm sure if I check the post game or Kompany thread, I-d find where you pointed out these school boy errors, right? Or could it just be that you are selective with your critisms. :-)
No, I thought Kompany made a couple of errors, but nowhere near as bad as those we usually see on a 'good' day from the usual bunch. I have always said that all defenders make errors, & Kompany has made plenty, including some huge ones. It's interesting to see how you have suddenly decided to point out mistakes though, after largely ignoring all of them or even making ridiculous arguments for them not existing, for two seasons.
Otamendi has the ability to stay back of course. Just nowhere near as good at spotting danger or reacting to it or dealing with it, as Kompany. He never will be.
Stones may learn, from Kompany. He won't learn anything at all, from Otamendi.
1. I have never done this. Rather I have argued Kompany did the same but we don't think he is shit because of it.No, I thought Kompany made a couple of errors, but nowhere near as bad as those we usually see on a 'good' day from the usual bunch. I have always said that all defenders make errors, & Kompany has made plenty, including some huge ones. It's interesting to see how you have suddenly decided to point out mistakes though, after largely ignoring all of them or even making ridiculous arguments for them not existing, for two seasons.
Otamendi has the ability to stay back of course. Just nowhere near as good at spotting danger or reacting to it or dealing with it, as Kompany. He never will be.
Stones may learn, from Kompany. He won't learn anything at all, from Otamendi.
Even on the match day thread, someone exclaimed when Kompany rushed out of the backline to attack (often foul) an attacker on the ball, some poster exclaimed " unlike Otamendi, when Kompany does it, its with a purpose" (I'm paraphrasing- I fell out of my stool laughing.
Coz that highlighed a point I had been making for years, the poster had just ascribe a positive conclusion to the very same act Otamendi often got serious insults for.
I mean its not as if I don't think Kompany is a better defender than Otamendi. I do. I just don't think he presently is. And nothing he has done in the last 2 seasons suggests he is.
Fans are just hoping he is. I on the other hand wanna wait and see if he is. How my position can be deemed the irrational one blows my mind!
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eversince 76
Well-Known Member
1. I have never done this. Rather I have argued Kompany does the same bit we don't think he is shot because of it.
2. And that is precisely why I am pointing. It out now. To show you I was right all along that Kompany commits similar errors as consistently.
3. Again, I am not inclined to take guesses on whether 1 player is more or less likely to spot danger. Such claims are often fallacies in the minds of partial fans. Show me a metric that suggests it. Show anything independent of bias. Anything. Then ill get on board.
I mean its not as if I don't think Kompany is a better defender than Otamendi. I do. I just don't think he presently is. And nothing he has done in the last 2 seasons suggests he is.
Fans are just hoping he is. I on the other hand wanna wait and see if he is. How my position can be deemed the irrational one blows my mind!
Pretty much as how I read you pointing out Kompany has had and still have mistakes in him. I like to think at this moment of time Kompany is still our best defender. And I think his presence and leadership gives a lift to other team members and especially the one next to him i.e. Ottamendi. That by itself is important enough to play Kompany whenever possible. Stones might be able to take over from him, but he needs more ruthlesness in his game. Leadership will develop by nature.
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
1. I have never done this. Rather I have argued Kompany did the same but we don't think he is shit because of it.
Even on the match day thread, someone exclaimed when Kompany rushed out of the backline to attack (often foul) an attacker on the ball, some poster exclaimed " unlike Otamendi, when Kompany does it, its with a purpose" (I'm paraphrasing- I fell out of my stool laughing.
Coz that highlighed a point I had been making for years, the poster had just ascribe a positive conclusion to the very same act Otamendi often got serious insults for.
I mean its not as if I don't think Kompany is a better defender than Otamendi. I do. I just don't think he presently is. And nothing he has done in the last 2 seasons suggests he is.
Fans are just hoping he is. I on the other hand wanna wait and see if he is. How my position can be deemed the irrational one blows my mind!
Kompany has come into a completeky different team, under an entirely different manager, short of match fitness & yes, has made a couple of errors, as he will continue to do. But he has already mastered the Spanish Kamikaze charge out, better than Otamendi, who has it as a speciality & has been doing it for years. He has also found a possible future remedy for lessening he damage when Otta or Stones get skinned & left out of position. Which suggests to me that a back 3 could become an option, as we have someone to spot potential danger & cover, rather than react after it happened.
His biggest error on Sunday, was missing a marking position & giving away a free header, something the other 3 do pretty much as routine.
He was absolutely furious with himself, punching the air in disgust, because he knew he'd just given away a goalscoring chance & it's unacceptable for a top cb, which highlights the importance of these things, for which there is no statistic, therefore they never happen, except they have actually happened once or twice in almost every game we have played, even against lower league opposition. Usually to general apathy.
Kompany is the only genuine top cb we have & he's made of glass. We need to find another to look after the lesser ones.
Gabriel
Well-Known Member
Escaped a booking in the first half for a couple of challenges that would have been carded by others, but he plays with his heart on his sleeve, along with a hundred tattoos, and he looks a sore loser. Big performance tonight, and he looked strong with Kompany.
dronefromsector7G
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Always plays right on the edge but when it works he's brilliant.
B\connellblue
Well-Known Member
looks a different player beside vinny. well done.
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