Open Your Mind Time..."The Qu'ran"

[Bigga]

So, all the free thinkers on science have religion to thank!!
Nuts, ain't it?

Geometry, trigonometry and basic math were all products of ancient times well before organised religion.Infact early organised religion tried to wipe out any traces of the sciences due to the fact that they went against everything they were trying to do.

If you believe in a god(not sven) and that the earth was built by the god then all science goes against this theory.

The evidence was pointed out that maths and science were in the the Qur'an in 790 AD, documented. There's no evidence to the contrary that maths were not part of religious teachings before documentation.

As for 'organised' religion, if you watched the programme, you would understand that different strands of religion believed in different things. So, your statement is a bit general. But, if you were to specific about which religions were guilty of what and at what points, I could have a better debate or none at all.

 

[BimboBob]

So, all the free thinkers on science have religion to thank!!
Nuts, ain't it?

Geometry, trigonometry and basic math were all products of ancient times well before organised religion.Infact early organised religion tried to wipe out any traces of the sciences due to the fact that they went against everything they were trying to do.

If you believe in a god(not sven) and that the earth was built by the god then all science goes against this theory.

The evidence was pointed out that maths and science were in the the Qur'an in 790 AD, documented. There's no evidence to the contrary that maths were not part of religious teachings before documentation.

As for 'organised' religion, if you watched the programme, you would understand that different strands of religion believed in different things. So, your statement is a bit general. But, if you were to specific about which religions were guilty of what and at what points, I could have a better debate or none at all.

Yes but they all lead to the same thing.Belief in a higher being who made the earth and the heavens and hell.
Catholics hated the idea of science,Muslins liked it but having read the Qur'an i can say that it never says"we love science" nor does it say "we hate it".Which is why you get a lot of conflicting ideas today from it.Very ambiguous to say the least.

Historically religion has always been a way of controling the masses but to make it appear like they have a mind of their own.This way you don't get the revolts.

To put it simpler if a king says"you will give me 10% of everything every year" you cut his head off.

Do this with religion and everyone accepts it as it is deemed to be the idea of a higher being and not human and then the cash/goat/whatever gets handed over.

 

[Bigga]

I can't agree with that sentiment as a whole, BimboBob. The Catholics may well have 'hated science', but the two teachings were not so far apart at one point and there are a LOT of cross referencing, in both books. And then you get the other confused message of peace and war, literally next to each other.

I think the problem is that the ORIGINAL philosophy(and still, despite what people may think) of the Qur'an was/ is a message of peace. The conflicting ideas you speak of comes from the present reading of the book.

In the programme, it revealed that in the earliest book found, the writings in it are made up of different languages, inferring that if misread(and it said even the best readers of Arabic could not decipher all of the Qur'an) then different meanings are taken from the subtexts.

For example, in the present Qur'an it is read that in death 72 virgins are available for every man (in martyrdom, I think this means), but in the oldest book found, it mentions "grapes" as a gift.

And this is because different accentuations are put on different words. So, do you overhaul a complete religion or do you stick to the belief you've had all your life??!

And this power to control the belief comes from the Imams, I think. What they say, goes. As the programme states, Islam is ever shifting and this is mainly down to the hard liners, imo, who have gained an iron type power in the last 40 years.

 

[TheMightyQuinn]

I can't agree with that sentiment as a whole, BimboBob. The Catholics may well have 'hated science', but the two teachings were not so far apart at one point and there are a LOT of cross referencing, in both books. And then you get the other confused message of peace and war, literally next to each other.

I think the problem is that the ORIGINAL philosophy(and still, despite what people may think) of the Qur'an was/ is a message of peace. The conflicting ideas you speak of comes from the present reading of the book.

In the programme, it revealed that in the earliest book found, the writings in it are made up of different languages, inferring that if misread(and it said even the best readers of Arabic could not decipher all of the Qur'an) then different meanings are taken from the subtexts.

For example, in the present Qur'an it is read that in death 72 virgins are available for every man (in martyrdom, I think this means), but in the oldest book found, it mentions "grapes" as a gift.

And this is because different accentuations are put on different words. So, do you overhaul a complete religion or do you stick to the belief you've had all your life??!

And this power to control the belief comes from the Imams, I think. What they say, goes. As the programme states, Islam is ever shifting and this is mainly down to the hard liners, imo, who have gained an iron type power in the last 40 years.

I'm not sure where I stand on all this. To me, personally, all religions are created to oppress and control the masses. The sheer number of opposing religions means that the world has been at war since day one which is a bit of a shame and surely against what any 'god' would actually want.

However, it is nice to hear about the Qu'ran being shown in a different light to the usual 'all muslims want you dead and the holy book says so' crap we usually hear.

Also I'd be very surprised if the holy books of all religions havent been altered radically to suit the rulers needs on an almost annual basis.

I think the irony and stupidity of religion however is highlighted in the grapes/virgin scenario. The message being, live a live deprived of the good stuff and when you die you'll get it all. A fantastic mind control tool if ever there was one. I'd rather spend my time deflowering virgins and eating grapes than sitting in a corner waiting for judgement day to arrive on the off hand I have a few girls and grapes thrown my way.

The ideal solution would surely to live life as a protestant (claim religion but dont actually practice it) and do what you like, die as a Muslim to guarantee some grapes and poontang then convert to a catholic and say you're sorry to make sure you dont go to hell. Sorted.

Apologies to all those I have offended in this post. Take comfort in the fact I will surely burn in hell.

 

[Bigga]

Did you watch it, TMQ?

 

[TheMightyQuinn]

Did you watch it, TMQ?

Nah I was out all weekend, I'll catch it on 4od at some point this week. I've read the Qu'ran though, I've read shit loads of Holy books for some reason.

 

[BimboBob]

Bigga,i didn't say" The Catholics may well have hated science" i said they hated the idea.To them it meant a lack of control.If people started to believe in science then they would stop believing in Religion.Without belief they had no control over the masses.

To the Catholic church it was either one or the other.

I do agree about your point about the Qur'an but i think i already said that it was ambiguous to say the least.One mans interpretation is quite different to anothers.Take Jihad.This can mean many things from defence to attack.Obviously the western world has lept on this word and most people associate it with"war" but in most instances it doesn't mean anything to do with war.But that's my interpretation!

The Koran(another spelling?) and the Bible have a lot of things in common.Both were written down years after the events took place(an extreme chinese whispers if you like) and both were then shaped and reformed over years until everyone was in agreement.

Mohammad appears to have been a clever bloke.Preaching a whole ideal but never taking sides,instead he made the whole thing to be interpreted in anyway people saw fit.He also borrowed(as did the bible) from a lot of ancient beliefs that suited his style.

Most,if not all,of modern religions are based on the same teachings.Which is a bit weird considering most of the worlds wars have been caused by them.

As the MightyQuinn said,religions are created to oppress and control the masses.Before widespread education this was an easy thing to do(just think of all the little kiddies running around in a shopping centre near you wearing red)Unlike the kiddies who can grow up and have free thought,religions bullied the people into worshiping them right up until they died by coercing,bullying and killing whilst offering the promised land.

The programme was a good one,i enjoyed it as it was good to see another side,but it still didn't change my view on organised religion.Evil to the core with mans best interests nowhere.

 

[TheMightyQuinn]

Bigga,i didn't say" The Catholics may well have hated science" i said they hated the idea.To them it meant a lack of control.If people started to believe in science then they would stop believing in Religion.Without belief they had no control over the masses.

To the Catholic church it was either one or the other.

I do agree about your point about the Qur'an but i think i already said that it was ambiguous to say the least.One mans interpretation is quite different to anothers.Take Jihad.This can mean many things from defence to attack.Obviously the western world has lept on this word and most people associate it with"war" but in most instances it doesn't mean anything to do with war.But that's my interpretation!

The Koran(another spelling?) and the Bible have a lot of things in common.Both were written down years after the events took place(an extreme chinese whispers if you like) and both were then shaped and reformed over years until everyone was in agreement.

Mohammad appears to have been a clever bloke.Preaching a whole ideal but never taking sides,instead he made the whole thing to be interpreted in anyway people saw fit.He also borrowed(as did the bible) from a lot of ancient beliefs that suited his style.

Most,if not all,of modern religions are based on the same teachings.Which is a bit weird considering most of the worlds wars have been caused by them.

As the MightyQuinn said,religions are created to oppress and control the masses.Before widespread education this was an easy thing to do(just think of all the little kiddies running around in a shopping centre near you wearing red)Unlike the kiddies who can grow up and have free thought,religions bullied the people into worshiping them right up until they died by coercing,bullying and killing whilst offering the promised land.

The programme was a good one,i enjoyed it as it was good to see another side,but it still didn't change my view on organised religion.Evil to the core with mans best interests nowhere.

I still snigger when someone describes someone as 'god fearing' as if it's something to be proud of.

If religious people practiced what they preached then I wouldnt laugh at them so much but as it is it just seems like a load of out dated hypocrisy by old men intent on starting wars or twisting things to suit their own agenda.

 

[BimboBob]

And don't get me started on the Mormons.

A bloke starts his own religion,goes bankrupt,starts another one but this time says he is in possesion of some gold tablets which after reading he sent back to heaven.Then he produces an ancient scroll which proves what he said.He is then killed by a mob of irate villagers(possible with pitchforks).His followers then split into many different groups all practicing the same ideals but they all hate each other because the originals didnt like each other.Madness.

Suddenly people are able to understand egyptian scripts and after checking his scroll they say nowt about god and a higher being etc but are infact a sort of shopping list.

Do they give a fuck?Nope.They just carry on.The whole basis of their religion has been proved wrong and they still carry on.

Nutjobs.

 

[GStar]

Do they give a fuck?Nope.They just carry on.The whole basis of their religion has been proved wrong and they still carry on.

Nutjobs.

I think you could apply that to many, if not all religion. But the "Blind Faith" arguement can't be rebuffed as its impossible to prove/disprove.

You'd think common sense would prevail in these situations, ask those 20 odd sets of parents in South London if they believe a higher power is watching over them right now.