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This was just discussed on TS.

Leroy Rosenior was on, saying a :sensible discussion and debate should commence" for Education purposes, in order to move forward.

I believe he should've educated himself before commenting on either badge.
 
As I've already said, I didn't mind the article, I didn't find it negative in any way and I learned a few things as a non-Mancunian. This is getting out of hands though, because we 'borrowed' city's Coat of Arms and the whole debate is getting much more complex. If the only problem is a slave ship just change the bloody silhouette of the ship. Something like this for example, much better description of us right now.

kraaken.jpg
 
We’ll have to simply disagree on your (or my) premise, as any real response would take this well outside the confines of this thread and football-related forum.

I will say, though, that my post (and my stance) is based on what was actually done and the real, continuing consequences of it, not an impossible analysis of whether what was done was “better or worse” than some unknowable alternative history. And, of course, to avoid glorifying atrocities and ongoing exploitation as part of some delusional notion of “civilising the world”, which seems to be the main fallback argument for those that wish not to confront our history.

At the risk of opening all this up again, what is this "our history" of which you speak. There is the history of my personal ancestors which, generally speaking, I have been able to trace back to the 17th century. I can tell you I have no ancestors who got rich on the back of the industrial revolution and the growth of empire. I have people who dragged themselves up to working class, and in some instances lower middle class, on the back of the benefits of both, but none who were involved in decision-making that would make me feel remotely anxious about my personal history. I suspect you, as a proud Brit/Spaniard can also trace your ancestry back to the same period. Does your personal history have any ancestors who were actually responsible for events that we would now call atrocities? I doubt it.

So then there is History, with a capital h, as an amalgam of all the histories of our own personal ancestors. That includes all the empires that have come and gone, all the atrocities performed by the Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Romans (I could go on), and yes, the British, Spanish, French and Germans to name but a few. But that is as impersonal to me as it gets. I contributed in no way to it and, as far as I can make out with almost certainty, nor did any of my ancestors. It is interesting to study, sure. Lessons can be learned about how to behave, sure. But even leaving aside the contemporary contexts, in which, presumably, all these events, which we now consider atrocities, were considered to be normal behaviour until they weren't, I still have no personal feelings about any of it. Things happened, we now consider some of them bad. Done and dusted.

And this isn't revionist denialism. No-one, as far as I can see, is denying any of it happened. Revisionist denialism would be removing the boat from the city's heraldic achievement because of some tenuous link to an atrocity which the city's population made efforts, at some cost, to end.
 
We’ll have to simply disagree on your (or my) premise, as any real response would take this well outside the confines of this thread and football-related forum.

I will say, though, that my post (and my stance) is based on what was actually done and the real, continuing consequences of it, not an impossible analysis of whether what was done was “better or worse” than some unknowable alternative history. And, of course, to avoid glorifying atrocities and ongoing exploitation as part of some delusional notion of “civilising the world”, which seems to be the main fallback argument for those that wish not to confront our history.
Are there any consequences continuing which are positive, or can you only see negative consequences due to British history?

What did the Roman’s ever do for us eh?
 
As I've already said, I didn't mind the article, I didn't find it negative in any way and I learned a few things as a non-Mancunian. This is getting out of hands though, because we 'borrowed' city's Coat of Arms and the whole debate is getting much more complex. If the only problem is a slave ship just change the bloody silhouette of the ship. Something like this for example, much better description of us right now.

View attachment 75759
Only problem with that badge is the Vikings were amongst the biggestever slavers in their time.
 
As I've already said, I didn't mind the article, I didn't find it negative in any way and I learned a few things as a non-Mancunian. This is getting out of hands though, because we 'borrowed' city's Coat of Arms and the whole debate is getting much more complex. If the only problem is a slave ship just change the bloody silhouette of the ship. Something like this for example, much better description of us right now.

View attachment 75759
No fucking way. My ancestors were ruined by the Viking invasions.
 
At the risk of opening all this up again, what is this "our history" of which you speak. There is the history of my personal ancestors which, generally speaking, I have been able to trace back to the 17th century. I can tell you I have no ancestors who got rich on the back of the industrial revolution and the growth of empire. I have people who dragged themselves up to working class, and in some instances lower middle class, on the back of the benefits of both, but none who were involved in decision-making that would make me feel remotely anxious about my personal history. I suspect you, as a proud Brit/Spaniard can also trace your ancestry back to the same period. Does your personal history have any ancestors who were actually responsible for events that we would now call atrocities? I doubt it.

So then there is History, with a capital h, as an amalgam of all the histories of our own personal ancestors. That includes all the empires that have come and gone, all the atrocities performed by the Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Romans (I could go on), and yes, the British, Spanish, French and Germans to name but a few. But that is as impersonal to me as it gets. I contributed in no way to it and, as far as I can make out with almost certainty, nor did any of my ancestors. It is interesting to study, sure. Lessons can be learned about how to behave, sure. But even leaving aside the contemporary contexts, in which, presumably, all these events, which we now consider atrocities, were considered to be normal behaviour until they weren't, I still have no personal feelings about any of it. Things happened, we now consider some of them bad. Done and dusted.

And this isn't revionist denialism. No-one, as far as I can see, is denying any of it happened. Revisionist denialism would be removing the boat from the city's heraldic achievement because of some tenuous link to an atrocity which the city's population made efforts, at some cost, to end.
I think, for the sake of not further derailing the thread with the can of worms I have unintentionally opened trying to provide some context to my stance about not agreeing with the assertion that the ship should be removed from the badge (not sure you are aware we agree there), I will just acknowledge your stance and say I both agree and disagree with elements of it.
 
As I've already said, I didn't mind the article, I didn't find it negative in any way and I learned a few things as a non-Mancunian. This is getting out of hands though, because we 'borrowed' city's Coat of Arms and the whole debate is getting much more complex. If the only problem is a slave ship just change the bloody silhouette of the ship. Something like this for example, much better description of us right now.

View attachment 75759

Viking ship so raping & pillaging is ok?
 
Are there any consequences continuing which are positive, or can you only see negative consequences due to British history?

What did the Roman’s ever do for us eh?
See my various other posts on the subject in the the thread for my thoughts on that.

I am trying not to contribute to off topic debate any more, lest all of my posts disappear in the night.
 

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