Exeter Blue I am here said:OB1 said:Mister Appointment said:Bob, I've often argued the opposite of your theory that there's a mental problem within the squad with regards the CL, however I'm rapidly coming round to your way of thinking.
To a greater or lesser extent I think you're right that the squad is good enough to compete in Europe and we've been turned over by too many nothing sides under both Pellegrini and Mancini for it to be purely a managerial problem. That's not to say that they both haven't made mistakes but at the root of it, there's a deeper malaise at play.
For me the reason I believe the squad will be broken up next summer and why i think it's necessary is because collectively the problem has grown to such an extent that the only resolution left is to look at rebuilding. We've had different managers with different styles of management and the problem in Europe has remained the same.
I have long worried over the mentality of the squad and you can do things about it with the current players - I posted something in the Pellegrini thread on the topic -but I think personnel changes in the squad have to be part of the solution. We also need some changes in the squad to add technical attributes that will help in Europe. Therefore, I do think there will be some serious surgery to the squad; whether it counts as a gutting - which Bob thinks won't happen is something he'd have to comment on. Obviously there are all sorts of limitations on changes that you can make to playing personnel: this is not one of those computer games. Also, we have players who some would love to see the back and have their faults but who may well shine more if surrounded by more players of the quality of our core of key players, Nasri would be an example of the former, IMO. But there are enough players e.g the likes Jovetic, Clichy, Dzeko that could be replaced in order to raise the squad's game.
I'm still not convinced by the mentality argument, or at least not in isolation. For me European football, in addition to superior overall technique, is all about pace and mobility. We can't press, we can't counterattack, and we can't get back and cover, all virtual pre-requisites in the CL. Pellegrini's tactical errors haven't helped, but he is the second of two very different, highly regarded managers, to have failed with what is ostensibly the same group of players. I don't think Pep, Klopp or Simeone would fare any different with this squad. It needs a big overhaul, and come the summer I'd shunt Toure, Jovetic, Clichy, Dzeko, Fernando and Sagna out the door, and I'd be having a good think about Nasri, Navas and even Mangala (very early days I know, but I'm not convinced he is anything other than a quicker version of Lescott at the moment) joining them.
Bluemanc100 said:stony said:lasereyes said:This is one of the most extreme of a serious of manic posts. If you dump half of our squad in one go, who do you think we will get in return? It will quickly become clear we are having a firesale and we will get nothing but rock-bottom offers for the player, and be forced to pay hugely inflated sums for moderate replacements (if those in question even want to join us).
To me it is still way too early to panic. The bald facts are we were totally hamstrung by FFP, have suffered several injuries, and had abjectly awful refereeing in several key matches. Yet we are still in a reasonable position in the league. At the very minimum MP must be allowed to do what was accorded to Mancini - to defend the title for a full season. Then let's pass judgment.
This forum probably looked somewhat similar to now about a year ago when we were in 8th place with 4 losses in our first 12 games.
The big difference being last year the players were getting used to a new manager and a new system and we were still scoring for fun. You could see the away games issue was only going to be a short term thing, and that was how it turned out. The losses were down to individual errors while players got used to the system.
This year, apart from a couple of games we have looked lacklustre. A shadow of the team who won the double. I see absolutely no comparisons to last year whatsoever.
The only constant is the atmosphere at the Etihad... It's shite
It feels like people are scared to sing these days and it made no difference when we were on fire, it makes a massive difference when we're not
BigOscar said:There is absolutely no point or reason to fire the manager. If he's not won the league at the end of the year then we could re-address it, but sacking a manager now would be pointless, and quite frankly, disrespectful of what he's achieved here. He's earnt the right to try and fix things himself and the CL has all but gone anyway. I'd hope the manager is having serious talks with Txiki over the long term refreshments that this squad needs though.
Nah, very holistic ;)NipHolmes said:St Helens Blue (Exiled) said:Just sack the manager. Its not rocket science.
Naive in the extreme
Have to say this is an excellent postg180aj said:tolmie's hairdoo said:Apologies, I originally posted the below in the Pellegrini thread but it's maybe more a wider question for our owners?
A perfect storm has been contrived, and we've simply not been able to wing it.
We've been doing it since the day that ball left Aguero's foot.
Due to the restrictions imposed on the club by UEFA, the owners thought we could get away with treading water, adding family staples to the small supply of fine foods we had previously bought.
Baked beans taste fine and dandy, every now and again. What they don't taste great with is being slopped on the same plate as caviar.
We have put together an ill-conceived menu for the last 24 months and much as I love our owner and chairman for everything they have done so far, I would now urge them to take stock of what they really want out of this association?
If it is to win friends and influence people, they are shit out of luck. They have enabled Manchester City, of previous ridicule, to bring out the very worst of British and European traits - envy and spite of someone else's success.
They have allowed their eye to be taken off the ball, trying to jump through hoops, in the hope of presenting a more acceptable, watered-down threat to the so-called establishment of the game.
Mancini, for all his faults, and he had many, knew that a team that had come from nowhere, still needed to spend on the very best, however vulgar it may be perceived by people who will never find City acceptable, regardless of what we do off the pitch.
Mancini managed his final season with one hand tied behind his back and cut his throat with the other one.
I could not believe the team when it was announced last night, although was relieved to see Pellegrini make the correct decisions at half time in replacing the appalling Jovetic and Navas, in terms of addressing an extra man in the middle and also trying to introduce Nasri's ball retention.
But to then undo that thought process by taking off Fernando pretty much summed up the manager's state of confusion this season. He is wasting substitutions because he is simply not setting the team up with the correct platform from the outset.
I stand by what I observed on Sunday, the removal of Milner against United was tactical naivety in the extreme.
Sadly, results dictate, but this current group of 'over-ripe' players won't allow me to be fooled for a second time, with or without David Silva, they should be good enough to beat the majority of cannon-fodder.
Pellegrini, if he can somehow make it through to January, needs a frank discussion with Khaldoon and Begirsitain. He should not be made the patsy for players such as Clichy, Fernandinho, Dzeko, Nasri and Jovetic.
Perhaps Pellegrini does deserve the absolute backing from Abu Dhabi to address the weaknesses in this squad, regardless of cost?
I'm on the fence if Manuel has it in him, but the solution remains the same, somebody needs to decide if they want City to wither on the vine, or go again, regardless of the consequences.
I think most blues would accept the trade-off being expelled from Champions League football for a year if the result is a couple of hundred million (and that's what it will take) to set a City team up for the next five-year cycle.
You can only be a nice guy for so long, or it starts to stink of weakness.
1) Should we spend without fear of UEFA to rebuild?
2) Should Pellegrini be given the chance to manage those players?
3) If City is supposedly a PR exercise for Abu Dhabi, is it in danger of going tits-up?
Most sense I've heard in a long time, I do have to be a little fairer on Navas though in saying as far as I could see the best player on the pitch last night was the cska left back.
Big point made here:FantasyIreland said:http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/pellegrinis-manchester-city-job-under-threat-if-chelsea-win-title-9845150.html
Manuel Pellegrini’s future as Manchester City manager beyond the end of this season is not guaranteed and his old nemesis Jose Mourinho has the potential to see him out of the club.
The Chilean’s position is not under immediate threat after the 2-1 home defeat to CSKA Moscow which leaves the club’s chances of Champions League progress slim.
The club chairman Khaldoon al-Mubarak was at Wednesday’s game but there was no expression of discontent from him, despite City’s four wins in 14 games. Khaldoon is understood to be calm and sanguine about the club’s start to the season.
But City’s owners are demanding and will expect to see progress from Pellegrini by the end of the season. They want the side to advance further in the Champions League than last year, when they reached the round of 16.
If City exit at the group stage and also allow Mourinho – who replaced Pellegrini at Real Madrid – to end the season with his Chelsea side ahead of them, his position will become vulnerable.
Pellegrini will be aware that Roberto Mancini’s tenure at City began unravelling in 2012-13 after City wound up bottom of their Champions League group with three points – the lowest by an English club in the competition – the season after they clinched the title. He was sacked six months later. City are, of course, champions again and have two points in their group, with Bayern Munich and Roma to play.
If they do not compete strongly to retain their Premier League title the chief executive, Ferran Soriano, is likely to look closely at whether Pellegrini is capable of providing the necessary motivation – something the side have clearly been lacking in the last two and a half months.
Soriano sacked Frank Rijkaard two years after the Dutchman had delivered the La Liga/Champions League double at Barcelona in 2008 because he felt the Dutchman was not authoritarian enough to maintain their intensity.
“Sometimes he had to adopt a more direct and authoritarian approach,” Soriano wrote. “I honestly believe that if he had changed his leadership style when we identified the need, he would have changed direction and the team would have been successful again.” Few want Pellegrini to turn around the situation more than City’s owners, who have found the Chilean’s adherence to the style of football they want to play and his working relationship with director of football Txiki Begiristain a welcome contrast to Mancini, who alienated almost everyone within the club.
But City’s Abu Dhabi owners, with a network of clubs in Manchester, Melbourne and New York, want to see the club as a continental force. It will not have escaped their attention that Paris Saint-Germain, who have received Qatari investment, lead their Champions League group having beaten Barcelona.
City’s director of football management structure means that a change of manager would not affect their need to keep evolving the team, with Everton’s Ross Barkley the desired replacement for 32-year-old Yaya Touré. So far, Everton’s £50m asking price has been far too high.
City will discover next Thursday if Touré’s automatic one-game ban for a straight red card on Wednesday will be extended by Uefa.
City’s captain, Vincent Kompany, said that the players, not the manager, must be the ones to take the blame. “It’s always a team issue,” he said. “We are the ones out there playing
Instant_Offense said:No idea what to do about Pellers. I think he is a good, but inflexible manager. I imagine he will be there till the end of the year barring a complete breakdown. What I am certain of is that the current crop of players have taken us as far as they will. Which portion of the field would you consider our strength currently?
Goalie: Joe may not be world class but he's damn good.
Defense: Quite terrible considering the individual qualities of the players. Regardless of how fantastic Mangala is in 5 years, spend the bulk of our summer money on him was a proper fuck up if we were aiming to compete this year.
Central midfield: Yaya still has moments but seems past it and unbothered. Fernandinho has been a shell of himself for 9 months. Fernando has shown no ability to merit the reputation he enjoys on this site and Lampard is a pensioner.
AM: Silva is unimpeachable. Nasri and Navas would flatter to deceive other than an odd good game. Neither get anywhere near the starting 11 of a champions league contender.
Forrwards: Aguero, when healthy, is world class. Despite high praises, Jovetic has proven nothing but an ability to disappear on the pitch and pick up injuries. Dzeko is...dzeko.
My point is this: whatever the reasons for our purchases over the last 3 years, we are left with an aging, uninspired squad without a specific strength. And for anyone who may mention our goal scoring exploits from a year ago, the 20+ games we have played this year is a substantial sample size. That team is no more. Management has some work to do.