PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

Excellent post overall but I'd point out that there are no "FFP allowances" as far as debt is concerned. You can have as much as you like (Chelsea had £1.6bn) but as long as it's a soft loan, or (like united) you can service commercial debt, it doesn't come into to play.

But you do seem to understand that FFP (as it was from 2010 till last season) based on historic net profit, is a really poor vehicle for assessing financial sustainability. Clubs generally fail because they can't pay creditors, who might include banks or other financial institutions. But it could just as easily be HMRC, suppliers of goods and services, or former owners. That's an issue of cashflow and is what nearly brought us down in the summer of 2008.

The new system is a bit better but not much. A true test of financial sustainability would involve looking at future liabilities and assessing those against expected cash flow, which is what La Liga does. Tebas may be a fascist & racist slug, but he's mostly got the financial monitoring stuff right.

Cash is king. That is a cliche because is a fundamental truth.

I have no idea or interest or much interest in what La Liga does but looking at future cash flow has a logic to it. Afterall, the "true" value of any business is the net present value of future cash flows. Calculating that accurately is a whole other ball game but people that forget that truth often end up regreting it - see the Dot.Com boom (and bust).

What La Liga did, and I'm not aware of it changing, is allow Real and Barca to write their own TV deals, which is a heinous crime against good governance of a football league.

FFP as it has been designed is generally just wrong and our club should not be subject to any punishment under any FFP rules. Our club should be hailed as a model of great investment and business strategy. Even now, I'm not sure a lot of people get how ridiculous our treatment is. unfortunately, that does not change change the seriousness of the allegations etc.

I am actually far from convinced that it is the place of football authorities to oversee clubs' financial health. Football teams are businesses and there are plenty enough laws that govern that.

I do think leagues should ensure a competitive environment but that should not be about stopping clubs who want to be more competitive from investing if they can afford to, and that has to be done a sensible balanced way, not the protectionist approach that is attmepting to punish City.
 
Hope the missus is ok. Agree with all your posts generally.

Personally, I don’t read much into the Note 4 point. The clubs audited financial statements are bound to match in whichever versions/supplemental notes are given to the PL and UEFA (although reading CAS it does seem that the information given pursuant to Article 47 was not just the stat accounts).

I wouldn’t hold out too much hope on appeal on point of law. Firstly, the points of law on dishonesty are settled - this is going to be fact and evidence heavy in any findings (as was CAS albeit on far less evidence than here). Second, s.69(1) doesn’t seem to apply to PL arbitration. View attachment 71723
Thank fuck for that! The 28 seconds of mindless euphoria I experienced between believing that, in the event of the PL panel wetting a collective finger and sticking it up in the air by way of making a decision on our case, we might have recourse to the High Court after all, and then having it confirmed that we wouldn’t, was making my head hurt!
 
And what if SM and Khaldoon both say we're innocent so we're fighting it tooth and nail? Which is what Khaldoon has basically stated already.

Completely irrelevant - they were never going to have their official response be ‘umm yeah….so….we might have done it….let see eh lads…’

Going to tribunal is a phenomenally risky strategy, as even with a seemingly nailed on defence, if the tribunal (and any appeal tribunal) find against then you’re fucked with no more recourse for appeal.

As said many times in this thread, no matter how bullish the club are publicly, behind closed doors there is no doubt they would happily ‘accept a pinch’ to have this all finally settled.
 
I had to go offline last night as my wife's ill at the moment (nothing unduly worrisome, thankfully) and needed some care and attention. Did you post the question? I haven't seen it, but if I've missed it, please flag it for me and I'll answer it as best I can.



As I understand it, the submission under article 47 essentially comprises largely the same information as is contained in the audited accounts, adjusted as necessary for FFP purposes. And the independent auditor is the same one who audits the club's annual accounts. On that basis, I've assumed that UEFA's allegations regarding the way sponsorships are dealt with in the documents submitted for FFP purposes would also entail the audited annual accounts not being true and fair.

Your reference to Note 4 as mentioned in the CAS Award is interesting. It actually suggests that it might have been possible for financial submissions to UEFA to be incorrect and incomplete, as was alleged, while the audited annual accounts remained true and fair. We can't analyse that further without knowing more about what note 4 contains, but it's a possibility I hadn't previously considered and it makes more sense of the position of some posters on here.

However, it doesn't make any difference to the issue of whether City's alleged conduct amounted to the club's directors potentially having committed the offence of false accounting. Under section 17(1)(a) of the Theft Act 1968, the offence is committed when someone falsifies "any account or any record or document made or required for any accounting purpose", and that seems clearly to me to include FFP submissions to UEFA.

It's also worth pointing out, not particularly in response to you but in view of many statements on here, that what constitutes conduct that's fraudulent in nature doesn't depend so much on what was done but on how and why it was done. If UEFA had characterised City's alleged breaches as having been committed unintentionally, possibly as a result of incorrect professional advice, there could be no allegation of false accounting.

Instead, they expressly stated that City dishonestly tried to conceal the club's true income, thereby deceiving UEFA into allowing the club to spend more money (to the tune of an annual £50 million) on player transfers and wages than the FFP rules allowed. It's the imputation dishonesty and intentional deception with a view to gain (not necessarily one's own) that's crucial in terms of making the allegations in effect ones entailing conduct that, if committed, amounted to a fraud-based criminal offence.

For another illustration, let's use the example of Al Jazira paying Mancini under a contract for services. There's no imputation of potentially criminal conduct if the contention is simply that City should have notified the Premier League of an arrangement between the club's manager and a related party owned by the major shareholder, but failed to do so owing to either an oversight or a misunderstanding of the rules.

On the other hand, if the contention is that the club deliberately concocted a scheme to pay Mancini extra salary off the books under a sham contract with a related party and intentionally concealed the arrangement, such conduct, too, seems to me to fall clearly within the definition of false accounting. Even if, for whatever reason, a prosecution would be unlikely to follow were the allegations to be borne out to the civil law standard of proof, that doesn't change the nature of the alleged conduct.

It's worth reminding ourselves of the PL's wording in its publicly declared statement of charges against City. In particular, I note that we're alleged, in respect of nine successive seasons ending in 2017/18, to have breached "the Premier League Rules applicable in those seasons that required provision by a member club to the Premier League, in the utmost good faith, of accurate financial information that gives a true and fair view of the club’s financial position, in particular with respect to its revenue (including sponsorship revenue), its related parties and its operating costs".

I find it hard to see how, IF we were indeed guilty of that charge, City could have failed for almost a decade to provide "in the utmost good faith, ... accurate financial information that gives a true and fair view of the club’s financial position, in particular with respect to its revenue (including sponsorship revenue)" without conduct taking place that amounts to false accounting. Surely dishonesty and deception would have to be involved for there to be nine years of continual breaches of rules requiring us to provide information that "gives a true and fair view of the club's financial position", at least in relation to some matters (sponsorship income, for one, which is expressly referenced).

This is important because it has a bearing on the standard of proof to be applied. Under PL rules, the standard of proof to be applied by the PL's Panel is the balance of probabilities. In other words if they're going to find City guilty they need to be satisfied that the PL's charges are more likely than not to be true.
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However, as I've discussed earlier in this thread and as other lawyers have mentioned, there's a well established principle in English law, supported by an extensive body of relevant case law, that particularly cogent evidence is required to justify a finding of fraud or other discreditable conduct. As a matter of theory, this doesn't change the standard of proof from the balance of probabilities. However, in effect, many practitioners regard it as creating a higher bar in cases where such conduct is alleged.

This is, in my view, an important factor in City's favour. To the extent that the charges involve dishonesty, and thus more serious consequences should we be found guilty, the PL faces a far from an easy task in terms of substantiating its case to the necessary standard of proof. To the extent that the charges don't involve dishonesty and deception, one can reasonably infer that, even with a guilty finding, the more extreme kinds of punishment mooted in the media won't be justified.

EDIT to remove erroneous analysis of the prospects of an appeal to the High Court.
Very informative post and real food for thought. As I was reading it I was reminded that we are dealing with the PL - aren't they the ones who accepted that Bernado was not a racist but that he was guilty of racism?!!
 
Thank fuck for that! The 28 seconds of mindless euphoria I experienced between believing that, in the event of the PL panel wetting a collective finger and sticking it up in the air by way of making a decision on our case, we might have recourse to the High Court after all, and then having it confirmed that we wouldn’t, was making my head hurt!

Sorry! That's entirely my fault.

We do still have a potential ground to challenge an award under section 68 of the 1996 Act on the basis of a serious irregularity. In practical terms, the chances of being able to rely on it are scant as it would require members of the Panel to handle the case in a way that's wholly at odds with the professionalism of the sort people who sit on that type of arbitral body. But in theory if they're egregiously unfair to us, we have that recourse.
 
Once this has all been sorted out and the prem league are our bitches ,how do you think the prem league will look and act afterwards ? There has to be less/no control by the red clubs ,pigmol and var needs sorting out once and for all and the management of the prem also needs to be looked at . When we win our case this has to be the end of the witch hunt against City, it will also mean we have a big say in shaping the future of the league so there is some responsibility there to consider. I hope we have the fire power to bring lasting change to the structure of topflight football in the UK .
I am not sure we will see any seismic change tbh. I wouldn’t be surprised to find a joint statement by city and the premier. Something along the lines of the dispute has been settled. The league is happy with the evidence provided. Probably try to take the moral high ground by stating that they have a duty to investigate any club blah blah to ensure transparency and fairness.

The league seems to be going after areas Uefa did not touch. @tolmie's hairdoo could be correct when he said 95% is off the table as it mainly pertains to Cas. It’s the other stuff that is the only concern, Fordham etc.

Far too much at stake. My gut is telling me a quiet settlement behind closed doors.

It’s quite ridiculous that FFP was supposedly brought in to stop clubs going to the wall but in City’s case it is used to do just that.
 
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Sorry! That's entirely my fault.

We do still have a potential ground to challenge an award under section 68 of the 1996 Act on the basis of a serious irregularity. In practical terms, the chances of being able to rely on it are scant as it would require members of the Panel to handle the case in a way that's wholly at odds with the professionalism of the sort people who sit on that type of arbitral body. But in theory if they're egregiously unfair to us, we have that recourse.
Ha ha, no worries mate! I’m always grateful for your’s and Stefan’s contributions regardless of whether the information therein is what we’d hoped for or not. I do find it astonishing though that a multi-billion dollar business can face total ruination at the hands of a ‘balance of probabilities’ panel, (effectively) without recourse to the courts
 
Completely irrelevant - they were never going to have their official response be ‘umm yeah….so….we might have done it….let see eh lads…’

Going to tribunal is a phenomenally risky strategy, as even with a seemingly nailed on defence, if the tribunal (and any appeal tribunal) find against then you’re fucked with no more recourse for appeal.

As said many times in this thread, no matter how bullish the club are publicly, behind closed doors there is no doubt they would happily ‘accept a pinch’ to have this all finally settled.
Who has said this out of interest? Certainly not anyone with contacts at the club as far as I'm aware?

I'm not sure that what Sheikh Mansour wants is irrelevant BTW.
 
It really is mate. For starters, your assumption that everyone attending & giving evidence are likely to all have English as their first language is completely incorrect

Khaldoon as Chairman may give evidence & I’m pretty certain he’ll be attending

Ferran Soriano as CEO may give evidence & again, pretty certain he’ll be attending too

Neither speak English as their first language, so how can it possibly be relevant that everyone attending & giving evidence will have English as their first language, when that’s not even true?
Maybe an Etihad rep, or Eiselt rep, or Mancini will give evidence. Will they all have English as a first language? Nope

No idea what your point about English & Swiss law is, unless you’re alluding to the fact that CAS is based in Switzerland & if it were based in the UK, we wouldn’t have won?

However, guessing you have no idea that the arbitrators & clerk for the CAS case were from Portugal, France, Switzerland & Holland? Or that UEFA used barristers from UK AND Switzerland? Or that English, French & Spanish are the 3 languages used at any CAS case?

CAS isn’t a kangaroo court mate, so what difference do you envisage this panel of 3 of English speakers, with at least one of the panel being a UK trained lawyer, will make?

Edit: Forgot the most important part: No evidence was the verdict at CAS for all charges brought within time & it doesn’t matter what language you speak, or what country you studied law in, no evidence means no evidence

You write well mate, but you know the square root of fuck all on this subject ya dirty cockerney twat ;)
Charming

Why I think the issue around Swiss Law is relevant is quite simply this there are differences around such issues as admissibly of evidence but the main point is even then CAS isn’t a court of law but UEFA are bound by Swiss Law

The whole process that the PL and City are now engaged in is different in terms of time baring etc but many of the charges that City face weren’t put before CAS quite simply it wasn’t within their remit
I tried to make the point in a previous post if the issues around Mancini’s contract and of course the IR issue if they are proven , and I say if, then other charges around FFP and Profit and Sustainability then have to be looked at differently
Excellent post overall but I'd point out that there are no "FFP allowances" as far as debt is concerned. You can have as much as you like (Chelsea had £1.6bn) but as long as it's a soft loan, or (like united) you can service commercial debt, it doesn't come into to play.

But you do seem to understand that FFP (as it was from 2010 till last season) based on historic net profit, is a really poor vehicle for assessing financial sustainability. Clubs generally fail because they can't pay creditors, who might include banks or other financial institutions. But it could just as easily be HMRC, suppliers of goods and services, or former owners. That's an issue of cashflow and is what nearly brought us down in the summer of 2008.

The new system is a bit better but not much. A true test of financial sustainability would involve looking at future liabilities and assessing those against expected cash flow, which is what La Liga does. Tebas may be a fascist & racist slug, but he's mostly got the financial monitoring stuff right.
The point I was making , or should I say was trying to make when saying FFP allowances I was talking about the sums an owner can inject by way of equity
 
@tolmie's hairdoo

I know you said we want to clear our name..

but we shouldn't be under any illusion that their shit throwing is magically gonna stop.

They say we're twisted..
Well we should give them what they wish for..

Just have Silverlake buy up the companies that give the EPL all their TV money contracts (Peacock in the US is the major one).

Then outbid everyone for TV rights and put a contract clause that City must be given a level playing field without any agenda by the PL or refs or VAR or pundits as they're the biggest draw.

Watch how soon rags, dippers owners flee town!
 

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