PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

Great post but one thing to point out where it's inaccurate is that, as far as I can see, there are 5 charges but only 2 substantive financial issues, namely the Mancini contract & players' image rights payments. And these are both wrapped up in a single charge, which is the second one.

If we haven't reported those properly, then by definition we've probably not presented true and fair accounts (although that's arguable). That's the first charge.

And if we haven't presented true and fair accounts, then we've potentially deceived UEFA FFP and the PL equivalent rules, which are charges 3 & 4.

I've said this a number of times, but the Mancini contract is a complete red-herring and irrelevance. Plus UEFA discussed the image rights payments with us in 2015 apparently yet no charges were made, either then or in 2019. So clearly nothing to see there either.

Bit, as you rightly point out, say "115 charges" often enough and people believe there must have been serious financial chicanery.

I'm struggling to get my head around this.

So if the Mancini contract is irrelevant and the image rights stuff is tickety boo, that means (if grouping into 5 charges) charge 2 goes out of the window, and by default charge 1, 3 and 4 follows? Leaving only a non co-operation aka charge 5?
 
This is my first post. I have supported City since the late 1970s and have been a season ticket/card holder since 1995 when we moved close enough to Manchester to make the journeys. I have read the forums for many years now and have learned more about issues such as this from threads like this than any other source. I have no great insight on this and do not have access to any privileged information or legal skills. But it’s nice to share thought with fellow blues. Like everyone else on here I have been disgusted with the coverage of the charges and find the concerted efforts of the red-top teams to bring us down appalling. I have tried arguing our case on social media and tried to inform fans of the usual suspects what is actually going on. But as many have pointed out on here it’s virtually impossible to get over the uninformed rants which usually contain the words ‘cheat’, ‘oil money’, ‘state-owned’ etc – you all know the narrative. I’m torn between trying to tell as many people as I can about the injustices we have suffered from the avaricious behaviour of the red-top clubs and just giving it up as whatever you say they come back with the same misguided nonsense.



We all tend to think our own are the best. But one thing I am absolutely convinced about is the integrity of the owners and the excellent management team they have installed right through the club. I used to teach in a university Management School and it always seemed a huge irony that if you were looking for an organisation that had great vision and achieved such great success in its corporate strategy as a case study – MCFC would be a magnificent example. Yet the ‘football authorities’ are trying to crush us and reward inefficient competitors who come nowhere near our standards of excellence. Problem is how you do you convince people that is true? I often tell myself to just forget the background noise and just concentrate on the magnificent football we have been luck enough to witness over recent years. But it’s not good pretending that I am not hurt by the constant jibes and untruths which are thrown our way. The other thing I am certain of is the resilience of our fans. I will always remember the first game in the third division (or whatever it was called then). Full to the rafters at Maine Road and we prevailed – like we will against this corrupt campaign to smear us. We have strong and capable management, owners with vision, an innovative coach who has changed the face of English football and we have fans who will fight and never give up. Apologies if much of my post is just emotional and lacks any facts of substance – we all know what I’m trying to say – but I think it’s still worth saying.
Welcome Dinas. I lurked for over 10 years before my first post and only post occasionally despite reading the forum every day.

I feel similar to you. When you invest so much emotion, time and effort in a football club I think it is hard not to be upset, angry, frustrated with the outside noise. You can just feel the glee in the voices of other fans when talking about our finances whilst seething looking at our outstanding football.

The general perception following the CAS trial was that we got away with it and we were still guilty in the eyes of most and regardless of the PL findings nothing will change. It’s corporate warfare and the executives from other clubs are doing their utmost to destroy us but I have huge belief and faith in our club. They can’t beat us on or off the pitch so they are desperate to smear our success.
 
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I would like someone of legal standing to confirm the evidential burdon of "Balance of Probabilities" is for all intents and purposes the same as "Comfortable Satisfaction". This would confirm any submissions at CAS in Switzerland would have the same evidential weight at any UK arbitration hearing.

My thoughts on this are that the PL starting point is the hacked emails, it's apparently the only evidence that was available pre-CAS hearing to all plaintiff parties. They then waited until UEFAs case at CAS had been heard and judged.

I suspect that was clearly a strategy to then avoid making any similar mistakes or trying to use decided evidentiary rulings by the panel which would be detrimental to their case - its a lovely double jeopardy for City as its tantamount to being prosecuted twice for the same offence the 1st being a trial run to iron out any "prosecution" wrinkles.

I was aware that UEFA conducted via Ernst & Young a review of Citys sponsorship values and no allegation of inflated sponsorship was borne out, surely this alone is sufficient to exclude any "overpricing allegations". As a comparison didn't the same firm on behalf of UEFA find extreme overvaluation of PSG's main sponsors and make a forced reduction? It therefore can hardly be said to be a partisan finding.

The problem they now had was UEFA had no additional evidence to substantiate their claims of owner funded sponsorship in respect of Citys major sponsor, Etihad and in fact City submitted evidence like the complete email trail and substantive multiple witness testimony, with additional documents, definitively refuting these allegations. These included the positive identification of "HH" referred to in the emails as not being the individual UEFA hoped it was. I cannot see how these allegations can be re-visited without consideration of the same rebuttal evidence from the defendant, with the same outcome.

The press loved to include the time barring issues as some kind of proof of wrongdoing however they are merely untested allegations. UEFA offered no evidence again because they had none however the rebuttal evidence for any such allegation was never heard despite the fact City stated such rebuttal evidence was present. I think its true any attempt to include those allegations would need the establishment of fraudulent behaviour on the defendants part. That is a sizeable hurdle to get over and I suspect rebuttal evidence will again be plentiful should those allegations be "somehow" allowed.

Its therefore difficult without substantive knowledge to know exactly what it is the PL are accusing us of, despite the broad brush strokes like breaking of "profit and sustainability" rules and all in the absence of "good faith". They certainly seem to be an accusation that the initial breaches were repeated annually indicating either any initial financial false information was subsequently compounded, without a necessary correction or that the practice employed creating any anomaly was repeated ad infinitum.

We can guess they may want to test the data surrounding the up front payments of Fordham re player image rights as a suitable vehicle to achieve those income results submitted or evaluate the contract arrangement of Roberto Mancini with AD and how it was paid and by who. Is it anything to do with our secondary AD sponsorships, Aabar or Etisalat which we agreed not to increase in subsequent years, once their value was established in our communication process with UEFA with whom we seemed to have a reasonable working relationship at the time. I was under the impression all these matters had already been tested by UEFA who were satisfied these income streams and expenditure were properly accounted for. Is it possible one set of FFP rules makes different requirements than another? If so the whole thing is a farce.

Other matters include the infamous procedural "Agreement" between City and UEFA following the failure to meet the break even requirements in the 1st FFP period. City cried foul and PB has done numerous breakdowns of how UEFA moved the goalposts of the requirements to exclude some pre-2010 contractual wage agreements meaning we eventually failed by a lot, instead of just passing as we had planned according to UEFAs initial guidance document. We took our medicine in the infamous "pinch" as an end to it all. Nobody was ever privvy to the actual contents of the "Agreement" however Khaldoon was livid with Infantino and remained unrepentant claiming that we did not breach the FFP rules. Will these details now be raked up? Can we be punished again somehow by something that did not exist in 2013?

A lot of water and football has passed under the bridges of time since then, yet now we are having to revisit it all in new sets of allegations of impropriety of the most serious nature. There can be no doubt they are accusing us of "Cooking the books" and submitting false information via our accounts as these are the legal company documents that substantiate any additional FFP documentation supporting Fair and sustainable documents to the PL and UEFA. They accuse us of doing this deliberately with mens rea in an attempt to deceive and profit as a result. There can be no greater insult to our ownership and company officers than we are liars and cheats. The halls of our Abu Dhabis owners home should be quivering with indignation at such allegations. I am hoping this instills a steely determination that those responsible for these allegations will be the ones proven to be completely wrong in the case of these matters.

So what evidence is there to back up such serious allegations - we don't know, can't imagine and whats worse we're likely to never find out as these are private proceedings and the arbitration hearings are behind firmly closed doors. Will there be a final judgement available in the public domain as thorough and revealing as the CAS judgement?

In the meantime we must suffer the barbs of partisan social media buffoons, the ire and faux outrage of media know noughts, the taunting of rival fan bases who have as much idea about FFP rules as they do about the concept of Schroedingers Cat or the existence of dark energy.

I don't have time for it - these are the most joyful times to be a blue in my lifetime and no 36 year old virgin Arsenal fan from Romford living in him mums basement with a laptop is going to spoil it by pouring out his vitriol on twitter. Just cry more will be any responsive tweet.

According to the plebs we are the "Cheaters", no evidence, no trial, just the court of public opinion. Its us against the world blues, so let's circle the wagons, put our big boy pants on, laugh off the scorn and ire of social media, put our trust in the boys and our magnificent manager. Lets cross our fingers Lord Pannick and his team do the business off the pitch while the boys in blue do it on the pitch and bring us all an FA Cup win over our most hated enemy and then seal their immortality by winning old big ears and shutting up the doubters and haters once and for all.

Up the fucking blues - see you at Wembley and then in Istanbul! 1-2-3-4-....
That was a very good read.
 
Welcome Dinas. I lurked for over 10 years before my first post and only post occasionally despite reading the forum every day.

I feel similar to you. When you invest so much emotion, time and effort in a football club I think it is hard not to be upset, angry, frustrated with the outside noise. You can just feel the glee in the voices of other fans when talking about our finances whilst seething looking at our outstanding football.

The general perception following the CAS trial was that we got away with it and we were still guilty in the eyes of most and regardless of the PL findings nothing will change. It’s corporate warfare and the executives from other clubs are doing their utmost to destroy us but I have huge belief and faith in our club. They can’t beat us on or off the pitch so they are desperate to smear out success.
The problem for City and us fans is that the narrative to our opponents is gospel, we're dammed if we win the case and dammed if we don't, it's in their back pocket everytime we do something brilliant or win another trophy. To them in their eyes we will be forever cheats even though deep down they know we haven't done anything more than have the temerity to challenge and beat the established elite. The red tops.
 
Welcome Dinas. I lurked for over 10 years before my first post and only post occasionally despite reading the forum every day.

I feel similar to you. When you invest so much emotion, time and effort in a football club I think it is hard not to be upset, angry, frustrated with the outside noise. You can just feel the glee in the voices of other fans when talking about our finances whilst seething looking at our outstanding football.

The general perception following the CAS trial was that we got away with it and we were still guilty in the eyes of most and regardless of the PL findings nothing will change. It’s corporate warfare and the executives from other clubs are doing their utmost to destroy us but I have huge belief and faith in our club. They can’t beat us on or off the pitch so they are desperate to smear out success.
Absolutely mate. I think they may well end up regretting the whole sorry chapter. If they have under-estimated our owners, management and fans then they may have messed up big time. That's my hope anyway and although I am by nature a pessimist I think we will win this sordid battle. We have beaten them all ways so far and I really can't see that changing.
Welcome Dinas. I lurked for over 10 years before my first post and only post occasionally despite reading the forum every day.

I feel similar to you. When you invest so much emotion, time and effort in a football club I think it is hard not to be upset, angry, frustrated with the outside noise. You can just feel the glee in the voices of other fans when talking about our finances whilst seething looking at our outstanding football.

The general perception following the CAS trial was that we got away with it and we were still guilty in the eyes of most and regardless of the PL findings nothing will change. It’s corporate warfare and the executives from other clubs are doing their utmost to destroy us but I have huge belief and faith in our club. They can’t beat us on or off the pitch so they are desperate to smear out success.
 
I would like someone of legal standing to confirm the evidential burdon of "Balance of Probabilities" is for all intents and purposes the same as "Comfortable Satisfaction". This would confirm any submissions at CAS in Switzerland would have the same evidential weight at any UK arbitration hearing.

My thoughts on this are that the PL starting point is the hacked emails, it's apparently the only evidence that was available pre-CAS hearing to all plaintiff parties. They then waited until UEFAs case at CAS had been heard and judged.

I suspect that was clearly a strategy to then avoid making any similar mistakes or trying to use decided evidentiary rulings by the panel which would be detrimental to their case - its a lovely double jeopardy for City as its tantamount to being prosecuted twice for the same offence the 1st being a trial run to iron out any "prosecution" wrinkles.

I was aware that UEFA conducted via Ernst & Young a review of Citys sponsorship values and no allegation of inflated sponsorship was borne out, surely this alone is sufficient to exclude any "overpricing allegations". As a comparison didn't the same firm on behalf of UEFA find extreme overvaluation of PSG's main sponsors and make a forced reduction? It therefore can hardly be said to be a partisan finding.

The problem they now had was UEFA had no additional evidence to substantiate their claims of owner funded sponsorship in respect of Citys major sponsor, Etihad and in fact City submitted evidence like the complete email trail and substantive multiple witness testimony, with additional documents, definitively refuting these allegations. These included the positive identification of "HH" referred to in the emails as not being the individual UEFA hoped it was. I cannot see how these allegations can be re-visited without consideration of the same rebuttal evidence from the defendant, with the same outcome.

The press loved to include the time barring issues as some kind of proof of wrongdoing however they are merely untested allegations. UEFA offered no evidence again because they had none however the rebuttal evidence for any such allegation was never heard despite the fact City stated such rebuttal evidence was present. I think its true any attempt to include those allegations would need the establishment of fraudulent behaviour on the defendants part. That is a sizeable hurdle to get over and I suspect rebuttal evidence will again be plentiful should those allegations be "somehow" allowed.

Its therefore difficult without substantive knowledge to know exactly what it is the PL are accusing us of, despite the broad brush strokes like breaking of "profit and sustainability" rules and all in the absence of "good faith". They certainly seem to be an accusation that the initial breaches were repeated annually indicating either any initial financial false information was subsequently compounded, without a necessary correction or that the practice employed creating any anomaly was repeated ad infinitum.

We can guess they may want to test the data surrounding the up front payments of Fordham re player image rights as a suitable vehicle to achieve those income results submitted or evaluate the contract arrangement of Roberto Mancini with AD and how it was paid and by who. Is it anything to do with our secondary AD sponsorships, Aabar or Etisalat which we agreed not to increase in subsequent years, once their value was established in our communication process with UEFA with whom we seemed to have a reasonable working relationship at the time. I was under the impression all these matters had already been tested by UEFA who were satisfied these income streams and expenditure were properly accounted for. Is it possible one set of FFP rules makes different requirements than another? If so the whole thing is a farce.

Other matters include the infamous procedural "Agreement" between City and UEFA following the failure to meet the break even requirements in the 1st FFP period. City cried foul and PB has done numerous breakdowns of how UEFA moved the goalposts of the requirements to exclude some pre-2010 contractual wage agreements meaning we eventually failed by a lot, instead of just passing as we had planned according to UEFAs initial guidance document. We took our medicine in the infamous "pinch" as an end to it all. Nobody was ever privvy to the actual contents of the "Agreement" however Khaldoon was livid with Infantino and remained unrepentant claiming that we did not breach the FFP rules. Will these details now be raked up? Can we be punished again somehow by something that did not exist in 2013?

A lot of water and football has passed under the bridges of time since then, yet now we are having to revisit it all in new sets of allegations of impropriety of the most serious nature. There can be no doubt they are accusing us of "Cooking the books" and submitting false information via our accounts as these are the legal company documents that substantiate any additional FFP documentation supporting Fair and sustainable documents to the PL and UEFA. They accuse us of doing this deliberately with mens rea in an attempt to deceive and profit as a result. There can be no greater insult to our ownership and company officers than we are liars and cheats. The halls of our Abu Dhabis owners home should be quivering with indignation at such allegations. I am hoping this instills a steely determination that those responsible for these allegations will be the ones proven to be completely wrong in the case of these matters.

So what evidence is there to back up such serious allegations - we don't know, can't imagine and whats worse we're likely to never find out as these are private proceedings and the arbitration hearings are behind firmly closed doors. Will there be a final judgement available in the public domain as thorough and revealing as the CAS judgement?

In the meantime we must suffer the barbs of partisan social media buffoons, the ire and faux outrage of media know noughts, the taunting of rival fan bases who have as much idea about FFP rules as they do about the concept of Schroedingers Cat or the existence of dark energy.

I don't have time for it - these are the most joyful times to be a blue in my lifetime and no 36 year old virgin Arsenal fan from Romford living in him mums basement with a laptop is going to spoil it by pouring out his vitriol on twitter. Just cry more will be any responsive tweet.

According to the plebs we are the "Cheaters", no evidence, no trial, just the court of public opinion. Its us against the world blues, so let's circle the wagons, put our big boy pants on, laugh off the scorn and ire of social media, put our trust in the boys and our magnificent manager. Lets cross our fingers Lord Pannick and his team do the business off the pitch while the boys in blue do it on the pitch and bring us all an FA Cup win over our most hated enemy and then seal their immortality by winning old big ears and shutting up the doubters and haters once and for all.

Up the fucking blues - see you at Wembley and then in Istanbul! 1-2-3-4-....
Fuckin Brilliant that mate.
 
I'm struggling to get my head around this.

So if the Mancini contract is irrelevant and the image rights stuff is tickety boo, that means (if grouping into 5 charges) charge 2 goes out of the window, and by default charge 1, 3 and 4 follows? Leaving only a non co-operation aka charge 5?
We don't know the full scale of the charges. They mention sponsorship and related parties in that first charge but I can't see that going anywhere.

So, in essence, I think that's probably right.
 
Does Sheikh Mansour have an Egyptian cousin…


 
Do you think City just don't want him on the panel and think the PL will take the route of least resistance if they kick up a fuss about it?

He's allowed to pick himself on the panel, but he doesn't have to, and maybe this complaint and the press coverage will make him/them decide not to just for the sake of appearing completely irreproachable.
No idea - feels like swings and roundabouts to me. There has to be a panel, they are likely all going to be KCs and they are likely all going to have all sorts of biases (political, football, economic). That's life. Obviously all different if evidence of actual bias (very unlikely).
 

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