PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

[johnevans]

I bet it wasn't though and its true measurements didn't rhyme.

He actually made several attempts at it.. which could serve as a metaphor for this dreadful recent run of results we've been on..!!

 

[Cobwebcat]

The noises around this if you listen carefully are overwhelmingly positive, right? I'm not imagining that?

True but you are currently in a blue echo chamber here

 

[Damocles]

The noises around this if you listen carefully are overwhelmingly positive, right? I'm not imagining that?

There's no real noises around it. City remain steadfast and confident but even if they thought they were guilty they'd present in this way. Even the IC panel doesn't know its decision yet so if somehow you happened to play bridge with Lord Pannick on Tuesdays then even he could only give you vague guesses on how he thought it went. Everybody who claims to have anything more than that is bullshitting frankly.

 

[nmc]

I was explaining to Chris the accountant a few days ago that how I get things clear in my head is to write a report to myself with every single issue I can think of, and then check to the expert opinions on here. I did this for the independence of the panel a while ago and this is what I wrote:

(It's just my view so you can disagree, but it was useful to me to get things straight. Maybe it's useful for you. If I have any facts wrong, though, I will blame the cunty lawyers who weren't able to explain the situation clearly enough). Warning: It's loooong :)


"Independence of the panel

There is concern among some City fans that the PL panel will be biased against City and come to a verdict favourable to the PL because of press pressure, public pressure or the vitriol (and honestly downright disrespect) shown against and towards the club from many quarters. (There is a counter-narrative from some fans of rival clubs, of course, that the PL panel will be lenient to the club because of the wealth of the owners, political pressure, economic pressure, threats and Godknowswhatelse. These can be dispelled on the same basis as the concerns of City fans, as set out below).

People are free to believe what they read in the press if they so wish (unfortunately, if some of the events of last summer are the consequence) and to be naturally paranoid but, personally, I don’t believe for one minute that the PL panel will be biased one way or the other.

Let’s first dispel the notion that the PL will make sure that an example will be made of City. They may well want to, but this process is now out of their hands. They will be able to recommend sanctions for any allegations that are proven, but the decision on the allegations and subsequent sanctions, if any, will be made independently by the panel members.

With that out of the way, we can look a little more deeply at the independence of the panel.

Yes, it’s true that the PL appointed the chairman of the disciplinary panel (Murray Rosen KC) and he selected and appointed the members of the disciplinary panel, and also that he appoints the members of each panel that considers a case, but the members of the panel are all respected legal professionals, probably all KCs or retired judges, or other professionals with similar excellent credentials. They would only be appointed having demonstrated outstanding intellect and integrity, and appointment to a high-profile disciplinary panel would require them again to demonstrate those qualities. This is not some kangaroo court, it will be an assembly of highly trained, widely experienced and intellectually formidable individuals.

There is sometimes an argument raised along the lines that membership of a disciplinary or similar panel of that sort both constitutes a source of income and is a matter of status, and so there is an inevitable tendency on the part of members of those panels to recognise the hand that feeds them. Such a view has been continually rejected, at CAS, in PL arbitration and in the commercial courts. And if those rejections aren’t enough to convince you, consider that panel members are appointed because of their independence, not because they are likely to surrender it, and many have a tendency to demonstrate that independence.

City fans point to the majority 2-1 verdicts at CAS in a case where there was no real evidence of the charged behaviour as a sign that panel members can be unpredictable and vote for many reasons contrary to their fellow members. The vote against is presumed consistently to have been Ulrich Haas, Professor of Civil Law at Zurich University, firstly because he was UEFA’s choice and, secondly, because one of his research assistants later wrote a piece about how CAS had come to the wrong verdict. Why did he vote so? Strongly held views, sense of obligation, tradition? We will never know, of course, but it brings home the point that one never knows in a legal case. That is one of the reasons why panels like this have several members, to reduce the chance of an outlying opinion affecting the verdict as a whole and why an appeals process is in place (until the final authority) where decisions can be reviewed. In the end, the CAS panel came to the correct decision. UEFA’s supporters can be concerned with the question of why two of the three arbitrators disagreed with Haas, and the most likely answer is that he was wrong, not the two others.

Similarly, some City fans point to the decisions made by the independent panels that considered the Everton I and Leicester cases as evidence that these panels can make mistakes in their interpretation of the law, and otherwise. To counter that, I would suggest that, once the process had run its course through the appeals process, the judgments were not unfair. At least both Everton and Leicester seemed to think so. And, certainly as far as the Leicester process is concerned, the original panel was very much a B team of disciplinary panel members, who were corrected on appeal by two senior judges and a KC. I have no doubt, given the profile of the PL’s case against City, that Rosen will put his best team forward to avoid a repeat of the fiasco that the original decision in the Leicester case became. I doubt very much that either the PL or Rosen himself can afford another case where a poor decision is reversed on appeal, especially in such a high profile case.

And let's not forget the panel will have to explain the reasoning for any decisions, and they will be subject to review by an appeal panel if their verdict is not based on sound legal principles. In addition, any reasoning from either panel which does not properly take into account the evidence and the relevant legal aspects will be open to challenge at an appeal and then all the way to a PL arbitration and beyond (although in ever decreasing circumstances and with an ever decreasing likelihood of such an appeal being accepted). Nevertheless, such a possibility is there and one of the few reasons that such an arbitration would be accepted, (although I will say again the chances of acceptance and success are reduced the further up the appeals process one goes) is that the appealed decision is

“one which could not reasonably have been reached by any commission or appeals board which had applied its mind properly to the case”.

City fans may consider the PL to be powerful, rival fans may consider the club’s owners to be powerful, but no respected legal professional will want to have their reputation sullied with such a charge or, worse, with having such a charge upheld by a later decision, in my opinion. It would be humiliating for the PL as a whole, but particularly for the individual members of the panel, if they were to find their award being challenged on the grounds that it entailed a "serious irregularity".

To conclude, I feel strongly there is no reason whatsoever for thinking that the completed process will be anything other than full, detailed, scrupulously fair and intellectually rigorous."

And breathe ......

The major elephant in the room here is the proposed Etihad IPO - any criticism of Etihad by the panel would have very serious financial consequences and could lead to legal action by Etihad to recover any perceived losses. I’d speculate that these could be sums beyond the PL.

 

[mexico1970]

The major elephant in the room here is the proposed Etihad IPO - any criticism of Etihad by the panel would have very serious financial consequences and could lead to legal action by Etihad to recover any perceived losses. I’d speculate that these could be sums beyond the PL.

Burn it all down, sue the arses off them :)

 

[give it to gordon]

The major elephant in the room here is the proposed Etihad IPO - any criticism of Etihad by the panel would have very serious financial consequences and could lead to legal action by Etihad to recover any perceived losses. I’d speculate that these could be sums beyond the PL.

Exactly press/media don't seem to understand what a guilty City means to some of the world's biggest companies. Even an innocent City means these companies have been investigated and accused of fraud.
If these companies come after the pl for damages it would bankrupt the pl.

It's strange that the press/media don't report on this.

 

[IrishBlueSince92]

The noises around this if you listen carefully are overwhelmingly positive, right? I'm not imagining that?

What noises? Just what the club have said and those in the know from the start, do you mean?

To be honest, the closer it gets to decision day the more negative I'm becoming. Just the way that this season is going, probably playing a part. Also due to some rumours that have been doing the rounds in recent weeks.
I need some reassurance. I'm not as confident as I was a few months ago.

 

[Stoned Rose]

What noises? Just what the club have said and those in the know from the start, do you mean?

To be honest, the closer it gets to decision day the more negative I'm becoming. Just the way that this season is going, probably playing a part. Also due to some rumours that have been doing the rounds in recent weeks.
I need some reassurance. I'm not as confident as I was a few months ago.

What rumours?

 

[Eric Hitchmough]

What noises? Just what the club have said and those in the know from the start, do you mean?

To be honest, the closer it gets to decision day the more negative I'm becoming. Just the way that this season is going, probably playing a part. Also due to some rumours that have been doing the rounds in recent weeks.
I need some reassurance. I'm not as confident as I was a few months ago.

Which rumours are you referencing?

 

[Man_City_Loyal]

Not sure you understand the purpose of an Internet forum.

i do, but 95% on this thread has nothing to do with the facts. a little cleanup will do wonders