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PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules
- Thread starter ayrshire_blue
- Start date
mancity2012_eamo
Well-Known Member
Is he reputable?"You need some reasurance"
You can expect a personal call from Khaldoon tomorrow morning.
Its a quiet day in Abu Dhabi, he's not got much on.
Let us know what he says eh.
Don’t want any fecker giving false hope.
I veer between optimism and pessimism as I imagine many other blues do but fwiw my take is this:
All claims to know the outcome must be false. Any genuine information would have been leaked by now.
A finding that fraudulent accounts have been submitted would effectively mean City’s witnesses at CAS lied. The implications of such a finding do not bear thinking about - the credibility and suitability of our owners would be fatally undermined.
As to image rights, manager salaries etc. persons far more knowledgable than I am insist that such breaches would be minor in the overall scheme of things, although it may get the PL home on the good faith aspect
None co-operation would have to be on the basis of conduct prior to the Commercial Court proceedings as presumably City will have complied with the directions of that hearing since.
Prior to the Commercial Court decision neither City nor the PL wanted the matter publicised but following the application by the Daily Mail, the judge, thought otherwise. The fact that the proceedings are or were to an extent put in the public domain is as potentially damaging to the PL as it is to City, perhaps even more so depending on the ultimate outcome. Furthermore it effectively precluded the PL from withdrawing the allegations even if by now they realise they stand little chance of success.
I would be astonished and disappointed if Khaldoon and the board have betrayed the fans’ trust and my guess, and it’s only a guess, is that we may face financial penalties in respect of some non cooperation and maybe by implication a lack of good faith, but neither of those provided any “sporting advantage” so a points deduction would not be justified or appropriate.
As to calls for us to destroy the PL if we win I don’t believe this will happen. Maybe Masters and others will “do the right thing” and resign but it is as much in City’s interest as the PL that the product remains the global best league and the removal of the Luddite influencers would facilitate that which to me is preferable to a European Super League.
With acknowledgements to the input of Stefan, Prestwich Blue, Half Century Up and many others who have provided a lifeboat in the sea of shite created by the media.
All claims to know the outcome must be false. Any genuine information would have been leaked by now.
A finding that fraudulent accounts have been submitted would effectively mean City’s witnesses at CAS lied. The implications of such a finding do not bear thinking about - the credibility and suitability of our owners would be fatally undermined.
As to image rights, manager salaries etc. persons far more knowledgable than I am insist that such breaches would be minor in the overall scheme of things, although it may get the PL home on the good faith aspect
None co-operation would have to be on the basis of conduct prior to the Commercial Court proceedings as presumably City will have complied with the directions of that hearing since.
Prior to the Commercial Court decision neither City nor the PL wanted the matter publicised but following the application by the Daily Mail, the judge, thought otherwise. The fact that the proceedings are or were to an extent put in the public domain is as potentially damaging to the PL as it is to City, perhaps even more so depending on the ultimate outcome. Furthermore it effectively precluded the PL from withdrawing the allegations even if by now they realise they stand little chance of success.
I would be astonished and disappointed if Khaldoon and the board have betrayed the fans’ trust and my guess, and it’s only a guess, is that we may face financial penalties in respect of some non cooperation and maybe by implication a lack of good faith, but neither of those provided any “sporting advantage” so a points deduction would not be justified or appropriate.
As to calls for us to destroy the PL if we win I don’t believe this will happen. Maybe Masters and others will “do the right thing” and resign but it is as much in City’s interest as the PL that the product remains the global best league and the removal of the Luddite influencers would facilitate that which to me is preferable to a European Super League.
With acknowledgements to the input of Stefan, Prestwich Blue, Half Century Up and many others who have provided a lifeboat in the sea of shite created by the media.
Mancity1980
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 12 May 2011
- Messages
- 10,308
This is an amazing post, forgive my ignorance but who are you? Or if you are anonymous what is your background?I was explaining to Chris the accountant a few days ago that how I get things clear in my head is to write a report to myself with every single issue I can think of, and then check to the expert opinions on here. I did this for the independence of the panel a while ago and this is what I wrote:
(It's just my view so you can disagree, but it was useful to me to get things straight. Maybe it's useful for you. If I have any facts wrong, though, I will blame the cunty lawyers who weren't able to explain the situation clearly enough). Warning: It's loooong :)
"Independence of the panel
There is concern among some City fans that the PL panel will be biased against City and come to a verdict favourable to the PL because of press pressure, public pressure or the vitriol (and honestly downright disrespect) shown against and towards the club from many quarters. (There is a counter-narrative from some fans of rival clubs, of course, that the PL panel will be lenient to the club because of the wealth of the owners, political pressure, economic pressure, threats and Godknowswhatelse. These can be dispelled on the same basis as the concerns of City fans, as set out below).
People are free to believe what they read in the press if they so wish (unfortunately, if some of the events of last summer are the consequence) and to be naturally paranoid but, personally, I don’t believe for one minute that the PL panel will be biased one way or the other.
Let’s first dispel the notion that the PL will make sure that an example will be made of City. They may well want to, but this process is now out of their hands. They will be able to recommend sanctions for any allegations that are proven, but the decision on the allegations and subsequent sanctions, if any, will be made independently by the panel members.
With that out of the way, we can look a little more deeply at the independence of the panel.
Yes, it’s true that the PL appointed the chairman of the disciplinary panel (Murray Rosen KC) and he selected and appointed the members of the disciplinary panel, and also that he appoints the members of each panel that considers a case, but the members of the panel are all respected legal professionals, probably all KCs or retired judges, or other professionals with similar excellent credentials. They would only be appointed having demonstrated outstanding intellect and integrity, and appointment to a high-profile disciplinary panel would require them again to demonstrate those qualities. This is not some kangaroo court, it will be an assembly of highly trained, widely experienced and intellectually formidable individuals.
There is sometimes an argument raised along the lines that membership of a disciplinary or similar panel of that sort both constitutes a source of income and is a matter of status, and so there is an inevitable tendency on the part of members of those panels to recognise the hand that feeds them. Such a view has been continually rejected, at CAS, in PL arbitration and in the commercial courts. And if those rejections aren’t enough to convince you, consider that panel members are appointed because of their independence, not because they are likely to surrender it, and many have a tendency to demonstrate that independence.
City fans point to the majority 2-1 verdicts at CAS in a case where there was no real evidence of the charged behaviour as a sign that panel members can be unpredictable and vote for many reasons contrary to their fellow members. The vote against is presumed consistently to have been Ulrich Haas, Professor of Civil Law at Zurich University, firstly because he was UEFA’s choice and, secondly, because one of his research assistants later wrote a piece about how CAS had come to the wrong verdict. Why did he vote so? Strongly held views, sense of obligation, tradition? We will never know, of course, but it brings home the point that one never knows in a legal case. That is one of the reasons why panels like this have several members, to reduce the chance of an outlying opinion affecting the verdict as a whole and why an appeals process is in place (until the final authority) where decisions can be reviewed. In the end, the CAS panel came to the correct decision. UEFA’s supporters can be concerned with the question of why two of the three arbitrators disagreed with Haas, and the most likely answer is that he was wrong, not the two others.
Similarly, some City fans point to the decisions made by the independent panels that considered the Everton I and Leicester cases as evidence that these panels can make mistakes in their interpretation of the law, and otherwise. To counter that, I would suggest that, once the process had run its course through the appeals process, the judgments were not unfair. At least both Everton and Leicester seemed to think so. And, certainly as far as the Leicester process is concerned, the original panel was very much a B team of disciplinary panel members, who were corrected on appeal by two senior judges and a KC. I have no doubt, given the profile of the PL’s case against City, that Rosen will put his best team forward to avoid a repeat of the fiasco that the original decision in the Leicester case became. I doubt very much that either the PL or Rosen himself can afford another case where a poor decision is reversed on appeal, especially in such a high profile case.
And let's not forget the panel will have to explain the reasoning for any decisions, and they will be subject to review by an appeal panel if their verdict is not based on sound legal principles. In addition, any reasoning from either panel which does not properly take into account the evidence and the relevant legal aspects will be open to challenge at an appeal and then all the way to a PL arbitration and beyond (although in ever decreasing circumstances and with an ever decreasing likelihood of such an appeal being accepted). Nevertheless, such a possibility is there and one of the few reasons that such an arbitration would be accepted, (although I will say again the chances of acceptance and success are reduced the further up the appeals process one goes) is that the appealed decision is
“one which could not reasonably have been reached by any commission or appeals board which had applied its mind properly to the case”.
City fans may consider the PL to be powerful, rival fans may consider the club’s owners to be powerful, but no respected legal professional will want to have their reputation sullied with such a charge or, worse, with having such a charge upheld by a later decision, in my opinion. It would be humiliating for the PL as a whole, but particularly for the individual members of the panel, if they were to find their award being challenged on the grounds that it entailed a "serious irregularity".
To conclude, I feel strongly there is no reason whatsoever for thinking that the completed process will be anything other than full, detailed, scrupulously fair and intellectually rigorous."
And breathe ......
Lost for words
Well-Known Member
Maybe it's because I've read all this doom and gloom stuff many times now, so forgive me for giving up two paragraphs in...I veer between optimism and pessimism as I imagine many other blues do but fwiw my take is this:
All claims to know the outcome must be false. Any genuine information would have been leaked by now.
A finding that fraudulent accounts have been submitted would effectively mean City’s witnesses at CAS lied. The implications of such a finding do not bear thinking about - the credibility and suitability of our owners would be fatally undermined.
As to image rights, manager salaries etc. persons far more knowledgable than I am insist that such breaches would be minor in the overall scheme of things, although it may get the PL home on the good faith aspect
None co-operation would have to be on the basis of conduct prior to the Commercial Court proceedings as presumably City will have complied with the directions of that hearing since.
Prior to the Commercial Court decision neither City nor the PL wanted the matter publicised but following the application by the Daily Mail, the judge, thought otherwise. The fact that the proceedings are or were to an extent put in the public domain is as potentially damaging to the PL as it is to City, perhaps even more so depending on the ultimate outcome. Furthermore it effectively precluded the PL from withdrawing the allegations even if by now they realise they stand little chance of success.
I would be astonished and disappointed if Khaldoon and the board have betrayed the fans’ trust and my guess, and it’s only a guess, is that we may face financial penalties in respect of some non cooperation and maybe by implication a lack of good faith, but neither of those provided any “sporting advantage” so a points deduction would not be justified or appropriate.
As to calls for us to destroy the PL if we win I don’t believe this will happen. Maybe Masters and others will “do the right thing” and resign but it is as much in City’s interest as the PL that the product remains the global best league and the removal of the Luddite influencers would facilitate that which to me is preferable to a European Super League.
With acknowledgements to the input of Stefan, Prestwich Blue, Half Century Up and many others who have provided a lifeboat in the sea of shite created by the media.
But...
We aren't talking of brown envelopes in large brown envelopes containing millions of US Dollars and stuffed behind radiators at Paddington Station or elsewhere.
What has really happened is that every penny has been accounted for and recorded by Accountancy firms and the Inland Revenue or the Bank of England .
The higher authorities know exactly what has happened and no doubt there are reams of paper for the court to work on. It is doubtless a long job but if Khaldoon says we have nothing to worry about then there is no reason to disbelieve him when the proof in the form of a paper trail is staring everyone in the face.
Prestwich_Blue
Well-Known Member
Was that the woke remake of Conan The Barbarian?I was explaining to Chris the accountant...
The rest of the leagues in world football must be shit if we're the best.I veer between optimism and pessimism as I imagine many other blues do but fwiw my take is this:
All claims to know the outcome must be false. Any genuine information would have been leaked by now.
A finding that fraudulent accounts have been submitted would effectively mean City’s witnesses at CAS lied. The implications of such a finding do not bear thinking about - the credibility and suitability of our owners would be fatally undermined.
As to image rights, manager salaries etc. persons far more knowledgable than I am insist that such breaches would be minor in the overall scheme of things, although it may get the PL home on the good faith aspect
None co-operation would have to be on the basis of conduct prior to the Commercial Court proceedings as presumably City will have complied with the directions of that hearing since.
Prior to the Commercial Court decision neither City nor the PL wanted the matter publicised but following the application by the Daily Mail, the judge, thought otherwise. The fact that the proceedings are or were to an extent put in the public domain is as potentially damaging to the PL as it is to City, perhaps even more so depending on the ultimate outcome. Furthermore it effectively precluded the PL from withdrawing the allegations even if by now they realise they stand little chance of success.
I would be astonished and disappointed if Khaldoon and the board have betrayed the fans’ trust and my guess, and it’s only a guess, is that we may face financial penalties in respect of some non cooperation and maybe by implication a lack of good faith, but neither of those provided any “sporting advantage” so a points deduction would not be justified or appropriate.
As to calls for us to destroy the PL if we win I don’t believe this will happen. Maybe Masters and others will “do the right thing” and resign but it is as much in City’s interest as the PL that the product remains the global best league and the removal of the Luddite influencers would facilitate that which to me is preferable to a European Super League.
With acknowledgements to the input of Stefan, Prestwich Blue, Half Century Up and many others who have provided a lifeboat in the sea of shite created by the media.
It's a fookin toxic corrupt shitshow if I'm honest.
If other countries got their shit together surely they could surpass the mess that is now English football
lancs blue
Well-Known Member
Probably more accurate to say the PL is the most popular league with overseas tv viewers, rather than the best.The rest of the leagues in world football must be shit if we're the best.
It's a fookin toxic corrupt shitshow if I'm honest.
If other countries got their shit together surely they could surpass the mess that is now English football
Fair enough it was a bit long winded but may I refer you to the penultimate paragraph :-))Maybe it's because I've read all this doom and gloom stuff many times now, so forgive me for giving up two paragraphs in...
But...
We aren't talking of brown envelopes in large brown envelopes containing millions of US Dollars and stuffed behind radiators at Paddington Station or elsewhere.
What has really happened is that every penny has been accounted for and recorded by Accountancy firms and the Inland Revenue or the Bank of England .
The higher authorities know exactly what has happened and no doubt there are reams of paper for the court to work on. It is doubtless a long job but if Khaldoon says we have nothing to worry about then there is no reason to disbelieve him when the proof in the form of a paper trail is staring everyone in the face.